handwriting - argh! need someone - a teacher - to explain...

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

Why I seem to be experiencing a groundhog day style time loop over this issue? Sigh.

Ds is in yr 8. He is good at maths, in top set, great attitude to learning, determined and works hard. Ds has HF ASD, anxiety, sensory issues and a tic disorder. He has to wear ear defenders to block out the noise and chaos at school, he has sensory issues around veins and hates his wrists being touched, holds his pen awkwardly as a result, has wrist and neck tics. His writing is truly bloody awful. He struggles to read it, let alone the teachers!

It is not likely to improve due to the above issues. I have clearly explained this to the school, in email, in person, we have had meetings requesting that ds uses lap tops instead of pen and paper. He is doing a 1/2 gcse equivalent paper this summer the school applied for ds to have extra time and a separate room for ds to complete his paper due to his diagnosis - his issues are well documented in other words.

So why has ds come home saying he stayed behind in maths to redo work that his teacher could not read. Then he was asked to come up with 2 ways to improve his handwriting by next lesson? Now if this is ds getting the wrong idea, I will happily back down.

But ffs! Ds needs more time, an alternative to writing in pen, a scribe...? We have literally spent an hour at the school with his teacher discussing why ds handwriting is bad and why it is not likely to improve so what do they want from him/ us?

Re software for writing maths - it is available but it is such a faff to use it can take a student about 4 times as long to type their answers.

I have had students who have used it for a while but find it causes more frustration than helps.

I find the same when producing lessons electronically - something I should be able to write in seconds can take up to 2-3 mins going into various menus.

Ways I have solved this with students is to print out questions from books so they only have to write answers/workings - minimising the writing.

Writing out the questions for them

I assume he doesn't have TA support with him full time - as this would be who would be used as a scribe - if there is no TA support in the class it will be hard to provide.

If the school is applying for exam concessions he should have an IEP and regular reviews as to how strategies are being implemented and if they are working.
As already stated, maths is an extremely difficult subject to scribe for or use a laptop for. Have you looked into finding out if there are any specialist programmes available? If so, take the initiative and inform your senco, who may not be aware. If the school has many children requiring assistance there may not be anyone available to work closely on this with your child. If you can afford it, think about getting a cheap dedicated laptop which he van use and therefore become familiar with. Where I am it is common for children to own their own if necessary and it really helps with speed.
Children often find it difficult to be precise enough to make a maths scribe useful. It is time-consuming and they need to explain layout of calculations/diagrams etc.
In a secondary school you can't always remember each child's specific problems and needs at all times in a full class (even assuming every teacher is kept fully updated, often part time teachers or those working in more than one department miss out through no fault of their own. It is not unreasonable for the teacher to request legible work. If it is too difficult at school, can you go through it at home with dc?
Lastly, be clear on what you are expecting to happen. Not just now, but in the future. It is unlikely dc will be able to continue this way into adulthood - you will be more of a specialist in this need than any (none specialist teacher, who deals with a range of issues), so don't be afraid to do your own research and suggest new strategies which haven't been suggested by the school.

If not already done, request an OT referral via school Senco. Ask for advice about both fine motor skills and sensory processing. Get a written report. Do this whilst he is at the current school rather than delay until the new school as they will likely want to try the same in-house solutions as the current school before seeking solutions elsewhere.

What does your DS feel that he needs? You don't mention this and it is the most important thing. It may be that low-tech strategies are needed as well as or instead of ICT.

If ICT is the way forward, then seek out suitable equipment (not necessarily a laptop - other devices exist), input devices like the right keyboard, and software, e.g. Splash-city for recording in Maths. Plan for practicalities - who owns the laptop, who is responsible for insurance, charging it, carrying it between lessons, printing out work, storage, updating, replacement. Get this written into his IEP, Provision Map or whatever the school has in place to document it.

Bear in mind that adult support, e.g a scribe is a very expensive solution and is reliant on the skills of the adult in the role. If the YP is academically able, then it may be difficult to find someone with the necessary level of education to scribe effectively in all the subjects he is taking. Costed against these, ICT is a relatively cheap solution, which may be worth mentioning if you hit the proverbial brick wall.

In many areas you can self refer to children's therapy services, Google your local NHS trust children's Occupational Therapy services. The handwriting difficulties could be caused by Hypermobility.

DS has this, his handwriting is atrocious, a mixture of upper and lower case letters, letters way above the line or way below the line, mostly print but with some cursive script, his writing speed is extremely slow and he says that if he writes faster even he can't read it. This has been a bone of contention for 11 years and the only difference over the years has been the size of his handwriting, he also has an ASD.

My sons handwriting is so awful at
that I dread his spellings getting sent home every week , no matter how hard he tries it ', his writing is so bad, but what makes it worst is when the teacher says they can't read or understand it, I know he's got a million times more going on in his head that what he can express on paper .

Maths isn't the same as handwriting exactly, which may mean that while writing words, sentences, essays is a problem, efforts can be made to make individual numbers more legible, for example by writing bigger (as with the cm square suggestion above - photocopying worksheets onto A3 can also help, this can also be done for exams), or simply taking more time to form the numbers on the final answer to try to make them clearer.

I've had a student with truly dreadful handwriting. They used a laptop for all other subjects but in maths they handwrote. In tests I think they made a superhuman effort because while I struggled to decipher work in their exercise book, I could always read their test answers.

You should ask the teacher. You may be missing some information. It isn't her fault if the school hasn't provided a laptop, of course, and some work in maths (particularly that involving drawing or labelling diagrams) just isn't transferable to a screen as it is in other subjects. Try working with the teacher to understand her issues?

Morning.
Have spoken to ds again. He wasn't really able to tell me how the teacher was feeling towards him as working out other peoples emotions is v hard for him. He thought the teacher was annoyed with him, but he might have just been exasperated.

But ds felt stressed, the lesson had been noisy, there were threats of detentions thrown around, ds is practically phobic about detention and even if he was not involved the threat of detention is anxiety inducing. When he is stressed his handwriting gets worse because his tics and sensory issues become more pronounced. Being asked to stay behind and write out his work again stressed him out as well therefore his handwriting remains terrible. When the teacher points out that sometimes ds handwriting is better ds feels he is being accused of not trying or somehow exaggerating the problem - this is not helping either.

I have been talking with this particular teacher fairly regularly. He is very experienced and very senior in the school, he knows exactly what resources are available. He is sympathetic but I think though he intellectually understands the problem I don't think he "gets" it - somehow he still thinks that ds is capable of writing more clearly, therefore he should. This is not the case. We have reached the conclusion with ds that handwriting is a pressure point for ds that should be avoided where possible. I think in maths it will be impossible to avoid entirely but ds will need support and understanding. I think this teacher is supportive but I am not sure he fully understands.

By capable I mean, completely at ease in his environment, unstressed and unhurried... Preferably alone.... Then ds can write his 'best' and it might be readable but it will still look like mating spiders.

I will suggest larger square grid paper as a possibility. Worth trying and ds thinks it might help ("a bit").

I would strongly recommend you get an OT assessment, he may well benefit from a personalised sensory diet.

I would love to furry. But after ds diagnosis the paed shrugged apology and said there are no NHS services for your ds sensory problems and gave us a book recommendation. So we would have to self fund this.

An OT referral, at least in the area with which I am familiar, will expect the school to have undertaken a checklist of strategies to try to ameliorate the problem. From what you're saying OP, the school believe that because your son is bright, he doesn't meet criteria for specific interventions, which I don't understand, given that some access arrangements have been granted.

Your son is disadvantaged because he cannot effectively demonstrate his knowledge and understanding of a subject because of his poor motor control. I would have expected that there would have been a number of strategies tried previously, such as a scribe, use of technology, voice recognition software etc. It really isn't a question of trying to improve his handwriting by practising. The school needs to understand that making him so more of the thing that he finds so difficult is not going to improve it. Alternatives should be looked at.

Has he been tested for Dysgraphia? Might be worth checking it out. I have it and the most common give away is the terrible state of my handwriting.

The thing is foxy they do use interventions. Ds is using a tablet in French very successfully (after I suggested they do this in his parents evening appt). He had a scribe, extra time and a separate room for his SAT tests. They have successfully applied for 25% extra time and a separate room for his GCSE this summer. But it is all ad hoc. Ds only got his diagnosis last summer, the school provided the supporting statement and they recognised that he was not just odd but in need of practical help. But it I all done within the constraints of the schools own resources and SEND budget, he doesn't have a formal plan or EHCP. We have a younger dd with ASD at the same school, her support is similarly ad hoc and we have been pressing for more assessment of her needs as well. This is why we are so tired. I feel like I am 'making a fuss'

Thanks tenshid - I have had a look at the dysgraphia indicators - ds certainly has the disorganised and badly laid out,cramped and messy thing down but his spelling is perfect, his typing is excellent and his grammar is way better than mine - his writing and presentation issue is down to his related conditions - co-morbid to Autism. He can struggle to express himself coherently as his disability is related to social communication. But his ability to write well is mainly held back by the need to use a pen to write iyswim - if he can type he is fine.

Hi there just an idea and sorry I have not read all of the thread but could he answer orally? I have a severe visual impairment and before I had my iPad I was doing university work on an old iPhone 4 using voice over and touch typing . For a very short things it was fine but not for 3000 word papers . I ended up putting my work on my YouTube channel . I have not lived in the UK for the required three years to receive DS a E so hard to get creative .

There is also an app called Notability that allows you to write with your fingertip and you can select a pen or a crayon in whatever color you choose . I use this a lot as well .

Please don't give up as I had to fight with my university to allow me to use what works best . They told me I shouldn't have signed up for the course if I couldn't do it . Sometimes you just need to keep repeating what you need and suggest some ideas that would be helpful .

Without seeing an OT you won't know whether or not the difficulty with writing is purely down to the ASD.

With our DS it is a combination of the ASD and Hypermobility, the quieter and less stressful the environment the easier it is to get thoughts onto paper but because of Hypermobility muscle fatigue occurs very quickly and the quality of the writing becomes more erratic. We more or less had to prove that there was a physical explanation for some of the difficulty with writing (and with other stuff) and it wasn't just because of his ASD.
ASD and Hypermobility are often co-morbid conditions but are a completely separate diagnosis and as such an OT referral should not be denied.
Does or did your ds have other gross and fine motor skills difficulties? (throwing and catching, using cutlery, tyeing shoelaces, riding a bike, using scissors, pincer grip movements)

I am hypermobile and dyspraxic enter ds does not appear that way. He is not particularly clumsy he is quite strong and can catch - not brilliantly - but his fine motor skills are good enough for intricate lego models and hours of manipulating pokemon on his DS

His sister is dyspraxic and has low muscle tone etc. she had an OT referral (age barrier to services in this borough is an issue - dd was younger when she was diagnosed and more services were made available to her as a result). The OT didn't mention hypermobility but dd does use a slope for writing where possible and other recommendations were made - including exercises to build up muscle tone in hands and wrists - but they do not seem to be suited for ds - dd tends towards sensory seeking and ds is pretty much the opposite.

The writing issue is not related to the ASD directly but to the co-morbid tic disorder and sensory issues - I am pretty convinced of that. All evidence certainly points to that being the case anyway - but I am not able to get a professional assessment at the moment we may be able to get a OT referral but I am having to look into how.

hellokitty - thanks I will look at the technologies you describe - 'rinse and repeat' does seem to be the way to get anywhere with these issues which is why I now try to sleep on it before I answer emails or write emails when I get frustrated - to avoid putting peoples backs up when I am asking for help - having MN for the therapeutic venting is invaluable!!

So Cheers all

Just wrote a reply and the whole thing disappeared, but basically what I was writing was that DS is amazing with an Xbox controller or on his 3ds i still can't beat his scores on the rythum game and he's not played it for a couple of years, Xbox is more interesting now

Big would your DS wear something like sweatbands on his wrists?

The sensory processing difficulties are a pita though aren't they, DS doesn't wear his ear defenders in class much now (probably more to do with the small class sizes rather than DS becoming desensitised as somebody else would like me to believe)

I was also going to mention Dysgraphia, there are different kinds of it, so I wouldn't rule it out.

I would get an occupational therapy referral, my son who is 11, has always struggled with writing (is also waiting assessment for ASD) and the OT report said he needs to use a laptop for all his work as it's that severe (getting school to understand is a difficulty) but it's in writing that's what he needs.

I would give OT a try as if nothing else they may make some suggestions to help him?

I have appalling handwriting, always have had. I've had it for over 50 years. But still people say things like 'have you tried writing more slowly?' Would it help if you used a different pen/a pencil/some sort of grip thing? ' No, it wouldn't. It has occurred to me to try writing more slowly, I have tried the grip things my DD got when her handwriting was found to be as atrocious as mine, and nothing works. Nothing. For the sake of any poor person trying to read my writing I print, write slowly, try to see how it looks to them so I can correct the parts I realise may be ambiguous, jump through any number of handwriting hoops and still my writing is awful.

Sorry to be a downer, I hope there is more help available today for your DS and that the help doesn't begin and end with 'try to think how you might improve your writing' and 'practise these letters endlessly'. But my experience is that a person with poor handwriting will receive endless useless advice throughout his or her life.

I once tried to find any 'your handwriting is so bad...' jokes but there aren't any. I hoped I could deflect the advice, help etc. This was when I was well into adulthood. I had just got fed up with the whole thing.