To think that grammar schools for the "poor" is a stupid idea?

[AwfulAuntie]

I know it's Daily Mail, but...
"New grammar schools should be created that only admit children from the very poorest families, an academy chief has said.

Dame Rachel de Souza believes selective schools could boost social mobility by barring wealthier children not eligible for the pupil premium – the official indicator of poverty."
Surely it's a very stupid idea - to segregate kids by wealth. And who would like to wear a school uniform that signals you are "poor"? Or how the standards of a grammar school will be attained if the selection will be done on the grounds of a family's income and not the merit?

Ps a English is not my first language so sorry for spelling mistakes. ..

Isnt that why they were created in the first place anyway?

Yes!!

I think we need to move away from old fashioned hang ups re Grammars lets work on creating a great range of schools for all our dc needs. Lets make sure all primaries support - monitor and recognize really bright pupils who are likely to pass the test, get great technical and other colleges up and running.

user1475002412 it may be possible to get into grammar schools were you are. It's not the case here. My friend who is late 30s was the only non-tutored, free school meals girl at a local grammar school in the 90's. Twenty plus years on most grammar places go to kids who are tutored at private primaries from year 3 onwards, or their parents pay for tutors and can navigate the application process. Many parents don't even know how and when to apply because the state primaries don't discuss it.

Userxx412 it's not "crap", it's a fact- the proportion of children in grammars from low income backgrounds is tiny. The KE Foundation schools in Birmingham, which are not unusual in intake, had c. 2% on FSM in their five grammar schools, and added an extra class of intake along with a lower pass rate (not a couple below, but in fact 15-20 points below) for children on pupil premium. One schools (Handsworth Girls') did not need to have a separate score as they took 20% on PP in any case.

My child has just gained a place at a KEVI school, with absolutely no tutoring, but this is almost unheard of in this area. I would say that she is (verifiably, through external testing) top 1% ability, intelligence wise. She scraped a place- 1 point above the cut-off score.

If you want to see how insane people get about grammar schools Have a look here

i was academically gifted and went to quite a prestige grammar school based on my abilities. However, I struggled to fit in and over 90% of the pupils there were from very well off families, had big houses etc.

My experience too. Except more like 99% at my school were wealthy.

I sort of get it too. Grammar schools were meant to be a 'leg up' for bright working class kids and instead they're full of children hothoused in private primaries (IME). It pull be good to change that, somehow.

*Sick of the poor children = crap school argument. Its insulting.

I went to grammar. I was born to a 16 year old single mother and brought up in poverty. But i was clever. Just like loads of other less well off children.*

I do agree with you. I don't think it's about poverty exclusively, but about parents' education and their understanding of the value of it. And wealth and education do often go hand in hand (not always though - I'm bloody testament to that!).

I do think that on the whole, the parents of the girls at my grammar had a far better understanding of the importance of education than the parents of my classmates at my failing primary. That's why their kids ended up taking the eleven plus in the first place, never mind the practice papers/tutoring that some children had.

And I should imagine that's a cycle that perpetuates.

I can see the logic but think it's a daft idea.

My son is 'poor' (FSM etc) but is going to the grammar school- with his 'not at all poor' friends.

Why would he want to go to a school for 'poor people' when he can mix with whoever he likes?

In my area, poor Indian kids = outstanding school. All the o/s schools are in poor Indian areas. The Indian parents don't send their kids to the local grammar schools because they don't perform as well when it comes to exam results.

If a child goes to a state school and gets 10 grade A A levels or a child goes to a grammar school and achieves the same, what is the difference?

Is it the people they're associating with that makes the difference or the quality of teaching?

Mugglebum No diff unless the state school student comes from a poor & disadvantaged background. My brother got 10 A stars at a time when mum couldn't afford more than 1 meal a day (I'd help but even then I couldn't help everyday) & he was working illegally every weekday at a factory from the age of 13 as well as caring for mum and aunt. He got 5 As at A Level in a similar position. When he applied to medicine based on predicted grades he was competing against richer kids who didn't need to do anything other than study & could prep for UCAS interviews etc - he only got 1 interview. Lucky for him it was a panel interview & the Dean of Pharmacy immediately began asking questions about his background. She nabbed him straight away to give him an unconditional non-UCAS offer in Pharmacy which is almost unheard of on provisional results. Brother then went on to get a 1st class hons in Pharmacy (95% - it was amongst the top 5 per cent of the whole of the UK's pharmacy results) while working 7 hours a day at A well known pharmacy as a sales advisor.

His grades were worth more. He showed a better work ethic. Better organisation & prioritization skills than someone who didn't have similar problems. It shows now because at 25 he's on COO track for a well known pharmaceutical company.

At my dd's school 5 of her friends who have got Grammar places are from low income and single parent families.

Do not underestimate the strong desire from these children who aspire to go to the Grammar. In our town the Grammar girls have almost hero status. Young girls see them wandering around town in their fancy tartan uniform and want to be them. Just like my dd. Our local primary do visits to the Grammar which encourages girls to aspire to go there.

I get fed up of MN which seems to be full of middle class people obsessed with the idea that you only get your child into a Grammar if you tutor them & swan round Europe educating them about culture and music etc etc.

My dd's friends are lucky enough to get a trip to Butlins and yet their desire to succeed means they work hard and do well.

Poverty does not = zero aspiration. I am testament to that.

Many parents don't even know how and when to apply because the state primaries don't discuss it

The Sutton Trust threw up this issue a while ago in a report, Grammars get all the blame for having low FSM but what are primaries doing to support their FSM pupils or just those who parents for what ever reason have no idea about 11+.

Its not rocket science that if schools are not bridging that gap - the dc of parents for whom its not on radar will not be applying for grammar.

"In our town the Grammar girls have almost hero status."

How utterly repellent.

User1475-well put and me too! In fact some of the most driven people are from very difficult backgrounds.

If a child goes to a state school and gets 10 grade A A levels or a child goes to a grammar school and achieves the same, what is the difference?

Good question. For me, I have read too much about normal schools failing their brightest pupils and focusing more on the middle and bottom sets.

So can I trust such a school with my bright dd? Is it worth the risk, how big will the general cohort be, ie - how many in top sets for various things? 5 PUPILS? 10? Why, when she could be in a school that specifically caters for her needs. Just as if she had talent singing and song writing - a stage school or the Brit school may be better for her.

Astoria, I completely agree with you. You must be so proud of your brother!
I was from an extremely poor background but due to fabulous teachers and hiding myself away in the library to escape abuse at home I gained 4 grade A a levels whilst working in a factory. I applied to one of the elite universities and never got so much as an interview. I wrote my own personal statement and worked in a factory! No chance for me.

I did get into a top university without interview and had to contend with trying to convince private school kids that my grades were worth exactly the same as theirs! Some of them just could not u derstand it, as if I'd taken a different exam! They were brighter and more cultured but I worked harder. That's why I asked the question here.

The very bright and driven kids will do well anyway, there is infinite scope to reach yourself the GCSEs curriculum and how to pass exams. My a level teachers used to read from books and we simply wrote notes from that!

Many parents don't even know how and when to apply because the state primaries don't discuss it

Completely agree - my mum only knew how to apply because my teacher suggested it to her, and she had to contend with lots of 'what's the bloody point in that', 'that's not for people like us' type attitude from our wider family too.

"For me, I have read too much about normal schools failing their brightest pupils and focusing more on the middle and bottom sets."

Where have you read this?

Our local primary do visits to the Grammar which encourages girls to aspire to go there well there you go - those dc will have a huge advantage.

Quite rare to aspire to be girls walking around in tarten, its usually more a desire to be with the cool kids drinking and smoking young!

HI Bertrand !

Do not underestimate the strong desire from these children who aspire to go to the Grammar. In our town the Grammar girls have almost hero status. Young girls see them wandering around town in their fancy tartan uniform and want to be them. Just like my dd. Our local primary do visits to the Grammar which encourages girls to aspire to go there.

Thank you User for pointing out that unlike the doomsayers many children aspire for grammar and take encouragement from those that do pass

User can i ask which county you are from ?.

Bertrand what is wrong with looking up to girls that have achieved 'academically' .

get fed up of MN which seems to be full of middle class people obsessed with the idea that you only get your child into a Grammar if you tutor them & swan round Europe educating them about culture and music etc etc.

The second part is also correct, if you have read the postings of 'Gilly' you will be aware that the so called 'Tutoring' culture does not exist in the towns in which she talks about.

www.theguardian.com/education/2013/jun/13/state-schools-pupils-ofsted-chief

"Sir Michael Wilshaw, the chief inspector of schools, has said that the failure by state schools to nurture their brightest pupils is "an issue of national concern", after an investigation found two-thirds of the most advanced pupils entering secondary education do not achieve top GCSE results"

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/02/02/failing-school-can-hold-back-even-brightest-students-believe/

"That’s how I wound up going to the closest school to my house — an underperforming and majority white institution on our council estate. The thinking was that if a child were truly bright and naturally driven, the child would flourish regardless of where they were schooled.

"But my secondary school years were among the most miserable and isolating years of my life. I was bullied nearly everyday for being one of only two brown children in the year. I was introverted, awkward and widely mocked for being ugly. I found respite in study and the library at lunch times, resolved to the realisation that while I didn’t have any control over my looks, skin colour or popularity, that I could at least have control over one thing that I could do well"

www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2978440/State-schools-failing-best-pupils.html

"Tens of thousands of children are not achieving their potential, let down by a culture of low expectations, unchallenging work and disruptive classmates, according to a highly-critical Ofsted report"

It found that there has been "disappointing" progress in dealing with these problems since the watchdog first raised the issue two years ago

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/schools-are-failing-brightest-pupils-more-than-40-of-comprehensive-schools-are-not-challenging-the-8656266.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/09/ofsted-chief-proposes-further-sanctions-for-schools-failing-brig/

"Thousands of the brightest secondary school pupils are being let down by a chronic lack of ambition among some teachers who are failing to stimulate their students' progress, the chief inspector of schools has said"

"He said: "As chief inspector, I have consistently lamented the failure of too many secondary schools to stretch our most able children, particularly the poorest"

And so on.......sorry to bombard the thread, its something I am quite interested in, so keep eye on the news about it all.