AIBU to think dog poses a risk?

[Littlefoxy]

I'm not a dog person, I'm quite nervous of them & so I'm wondering if this is just my issue or not. MIL bought a puppy a couple of years ago, he's now teenager in human years. We have a 3 month old & both DP & I are uncomfortable with her approach to managing safety when we visit. She's local & we see her roughly fortnightly. It would be more frequent & I get impression she'd like it to be, but we're just so on edge about the dog. She & her partner insist that the dog would never hurt baby but hold him on lead when we're there as he's not well trained & they have little verbal control over him (they'd never admit that). Their dog has got quite upset when she's held baby & they've joked about jealousy, but we think that's not a good sign. On top of this the dog yelps loudly which makes me anxious about impact on our LO's hearing. MIL wants to babysit & has acknowledged our concerns by saying she'd keep dog away from LO. However I think they're paying me lip service as they really don't feel there's a risk. She has forgotten on one occasion to hold dog on lead. Her partner insists the dog is always in same room as them. They also let dog get very close to baby so he can sniff her so DP has started to manage this by always standing up & holding LO. The first time LO came to their house the dog was over excited & yelping a lot at the baby's cries so she wanted to leave baby of about 3 weeks in car seat in the cold utility room on her own while the dog in warm lounge calmed down. I was astounded that the dog wasn't the one put in utility room & felt it's set tone of the dog coming first. Last year there was also an incident when the dog ran at a young girl in the park, scaring her. Her father had challenged MIL about not keeping dog under control but she could not see his POV & insisted he was being neurotic & child was being ridiculous. I feel she's not being very level headed & I don't trust them to put LO safety first. I hate conflict & I don't want to create tension. Am I right to be nervous? How do I handle situation without being direct as I think they'd be hugely offended?

We have a 1 month old and a dog. Dog is the softest dog in the world and she was my baby before LO came along. She has only sniffed LO and doesn't bark, shows no sign of aggression etc. But still we keep them apart. YANBU. Dogs can kill or seriously injure children. Don't risk it.

"The first time I went round with LO he said that the dog knew it was a baby & how to behave & that although he wouldn't recommend it, it would be interesting to put LO on sofa & See what the dog did"

Well in fairness, that's pretty much what I would do with a dog that had no history of aggressive behaviour.

Dog in the lounge, baby in the utility room, now I have heard everything. They can't babysit; and unless they change their attitude you can't visit them; and they can't visit you with the dog unless they agree that it stays in the garden if you have one or a spare room or their car but not in the same space as your baby because the baby mattes more than the dog.

Well in fairness, that's pretty much what I would do with a dog that had no history of aggressive behaviour.

And me but then my dogs have always been well trained, I have good verbal control and enough awareness to spot signs of stress, I'm not sure that applies here.

OP YANBU there is always a risk and it sounds as though your MIL fails to recognise that risk. Dogs do not think through their actions, a jealous or stressed dog will often act out of character.

I had this same situation with MIL except her dog was large and aggressive- not with people but with other animals. I was terrified of that dog around my LO, mainly because her attitude was irresponsible and in denial about her fur baby, she would let it off lead when it had a history of aggression etc. I felt bad as she's quite forceful but I basically refused to visit unless the dog was put in the basement, and kept visiting to a bare minimum. Long story short, the dog ended up being put down as it killed another dog, so yes I was right not to let her wishes override my instincts. Do not be bullied into doing something you feel is wrong. I would tell her she can babysit but only at ours and leave the dog at home. If she gets annoyed, that sucks but it's your baby and your rules.

She has dog blindness she doesn't see the dangers and you are right she is humanising the dog you can never predict a dog around babies your baby is upsetting the dog too and because of that it should be kept away. Yanbu

Just to add, I am a dog person, I have a dog and am not nervous of most dogs around my children, but a badly trained dog with an irresponsible owner should set your alarm bells ringing.

I am childfree (plus I don't like babies) and the owner of a very large dog which I love. However; people who don't respect others' very real concerns about dogs really, really get my goat. Your MIL should respect your concerns and put you and your child first. Dogs are great but they should not be prioritised over people. The fact the dog appears jealous is worrying. Small children sound like injured prey and can trigger dogs' instincts. I would insist on no baby sitting until your concerns are being acknowledged.

Your DM and her partner don't seem to be very sensible dog owners so YANBU to be wary about your baby being around the dog if you are not there.
If a dog cannot be verbally controlled and is not well trained you cannot trust them near a baby.
Its not about PFB - it is common sense.

I can understand why you are anxious, everyone is anxious about their tiny babies and I am very sorry for the loss of your first baby which understandably is making you more stressed.

Theoriginal has given you some very good advice on how to introduce the baby to the dog. No leads, they tend to make dogs excitable or feel constrained, allow the dog to sniff the baby, be relaxed and give the dog a lot of treats so that it forms positive associations with the baby. If the dog barks distract with a special treat or chew.

Some dog clubs run sessions for dog phobic people and non-dog owners who want to understand dog behaviour better. Would you consider something like that? It would give you the skills to assess the dog's body language and decide whether it is a risk as well as information on how to interact with dogs.

In general you should be more concerned if the dog reacts with stress and fear around the baby. Major warning signs are growling, stiff body and stiff, upright tail (with the exception of breeds that have naturally upright tails), but also look for more subtle warning signs like the dog turning its head away, licking its lips a lot, yawning and showing the white of its eye (this one is conformation dependant and some dogs will naturally have more white in their eye without it being a sign of stress).

Why do some dog owners try to insist that it's the non-dog loving persons fault?

I wouldn't describe myself as phobic, but I don't like dogs. I think it's perfectly reasonable and sensible to be warey of an animal that can bite/maim/kill. I hope my children have the same awareness that all dogs have the potential to harm. It only takes a toddler a second to jam it's fingers in a dogs eye and the dog to react.

I warn all children that come to my house that the cat has to be left alone and the baby is never left in a room with the cat unless I'm watching like a hawk. My cat is a bit of a biter, and it wouldn't be the cats fault if he got the baby, it would be mine for putting the cat and baby in that position.

Summary - I don't like dogs, I don't mind if my children don't like dogs and it doesn't affect me in any way, other than I don't like to visit people with dogs in their own home (unless I know they're the sensible sort to stick the dog in the kitchen when a baby-small child visits).

(unless I know they're the sensible sort to stick the dog in the kitchen when a baby-small child visits)

Me too,
You will get dog owners saying why should they put their dog in the kitchen in their own house
My sister insists her dog is part of her family so refuses to put it in another room for anybody. Never mind it is an animal and the rest of the family are human. I wouldn't want any person to feel uneasy because of my dog.

I'm a lifelong dog owner; dont trust either this dog or your IL's to do the right things. they are ignoring the problem signs.
Dogs do not automatically know that babies are small people, and the jealousy is a very bad indicator. The yelping shows a high level of arousal and frustration.

Thank you some great advice. **Booboostwo I talked to DP this morning & we were saying we should read up on introducing dogs to babies so we're better informed. Wish I'd done that when pregnant. a session for non dog owners would be great.

And all this 'put the dog in another room' thing is no guarantee either. What if the dog got out or someone opened the door and he pushed past into the room the baby was in?

For me it's a total no-no.

I don't think in any circumstances should you be attempting to 'introduce that dog to your baby' in the case of this particular dog and the way he's been reared so far - regardless of you being non dog owners and not particularly happy around dogs, it simply isn't worth it and the safety of the baby should come completely first.

I would just not take my child round there. Ever.

Just tell them - if they want you to visit, the dog must be shut in another room - end of.

They will say you are making a fuss as their dear dog "wouldn't hurt a soul." But stick to your guns - dog out of the way, or you do not come.

"And me but then my dogs have always been well trained, I have good verbal control and enough awareness to spot signs of stress, I'm not sure that applies here."

Well no, because the dog already has the idea now that there's an issue with the baby...but my point was that, his suggestion right at the start was actually fairly sensible.

OP, by far, the vast majority of dogs are fine with babies, if there's been no previous issues with aggression, it's generally a friendly dog...just not trained, the dangers are not that your baby will be bitten, stood on or banged into, but not bitten - does that help at all?

I can understand if you're a bit anxious about your baby's safety, if you've previously lost a baby and you're a bit unsure about dogs, but you're accidentally creating a much more dangerous situation.

You need to either get your MIL to respect your anxiety (because if they don't see an issue with the dog, they're not likely to agree to shut the dog away for visits)

Or get them to do some work with you and the dog to create a better situation, a good longterm solution might be to get a dog trainer in, to work with you and the dog, if you suggest it as the trainer training you, it might go down better.

I don't think this is op's problem and I don't really see why she should have to get involved with a dog trainer. If someone doesn't like dogs they are likely to avoid them as much as possible and in this case it is the MIL and her partner who are forcing her to interact with the dog against her wishes. If they continue to refuse to consider your feelings I would be really ruthless about this and just stop visiting. I agree that the dog is probably not aggressive, just a bit spoiled and not correctly trained, but I don't think you can ever leave any dog alone with a child and I'm not sure MIL understands this. We have two dogs that we adore but if someone visits, particularly with small children, the dogs go in the utility room behind a baby gate. I don't believe for a minute that they are dangerous but I know that not everyone likes dogs and I wouldn't want anyone to feel nervous or uncomfortable in my home. If your MIL and partner are unwilling to put the dog in another room when you are there, I very much doubt that they will when you aren't. Bottom line, this is your child and if you are uneasy I would trust your instincts.

"I don't think this is op's problem and I don't really see why she should have to get involved with a dog trainer."

It isn't and really she shouldn't have to...but, it's better than ending up in a huge stand off which is going to result in bad feelings on both sides.

Both you and your mother-in-law are at fault and you're playing equal parts in creating a potentially disastrous situation.

The dog is not going to damage your child's hearing, if anything noise from your child will be causing more distress to the dog than the other way around, you really do sound ridiculous suggesting hearing loss, so much so that you're making me nervous!

Your nervousness coupled with your mother-in-law's training mistakes will be teaching the dog that the child is the problem and this will result in the dog feeling resentful and jealous of the baby, that's dangerous.

The dog should associate your child's presence with happiness and positivity; A relaxed environment with no tense body language, occasional treats like a new toy to distract him or a few food treats will all put a positive spin on visits in the dog's mind but if you're anxious and jumpy the dog will sense that and it will make him nervous.

A nervous dog can be a recipe for carnage. It's a good idea to introduce a dog and new baby, let him sniff her with boundaries, you shouldn't make the child "out of bounds" entirely.

It's the dog I feel for in this situation!

So what you seem to have is this:

Even though they can't control the dog they insist it would "never hurt the baby"
You don't feel they can be trusted to keep dog and baby separate if babysitting
They allowed a small baby to sit in the cold while favouring the dog's needs
Someone who's commented on this is being "neurotic" and the child "ridiculous"

Hard to see how much clearer it could possibly be ... my answer would be absolutely NO babysitting I'm afraid; also I'd only want baby and dog in the same room if I was there to supervise

Well said Puzzled.

For me it would be a total and complete 'No'.

They do seem to prioritise the dog from what you've said. I would say definately no babysitting and if you are visiting with LO I think you are totally reasonable to insist the dog is shut in the utility not the baby! If they dont agree, dont visit.

They have no idea how the dog will behave with a baby. It will most likely be fine, but who would take the risk? Too often you hear if the dog that wouldnt hurt a fly savaging a small child. If the dog is even remotely jealous the risk is 10 fold.

I'd just tell them how it is and hope they can agree with you in order to participate in their grandchilds life.

I have a very large dog. He is very very gentle and very kind, plus very well behaved. He has been brought up with children, and is very very used to them... He is a breed people are normally scared of, but he is not out of control, excited, jumpy, doesnt bark (unless its at squirrels) or any of the things you have described.

He is absolutley catagorically not allowed near very small children or babies. No matter what their parents say - no way. I remove him from the house when we have friends with babies over. He goes in an outbuilding (warm/ heated/ furnished so not cruel).

It is not because he is rough or excited.... its because he is a dog. And as much as I love him, being a dog means there is always a chance even if its 0.0001% that he could behave unpredictably. I will not take that chance with babies! Even if he never behaved unpredictably (which no one can say 100%) he is big and so even pushing his paw onto a baby would at least startle them and at worst hurt them.

With people who have little children who are used to dogs, I make him stay in his bed and sit next to him if the children want to say hello. He is not allowed to approach them without being told he can.

Based on this I am astonished as the way your IL are behaving. Do not let them babysit at their house, explain firmly that they will need to put the dog in another room. Dont back down on this as a badly behaved dog vs a baby doesnt bear thinking about. Its not up to them to decide whats reasonable and whats not...

Yanbu. All dogs pose a risk, especially those whose owners think they dont