To think our bedtime situation madness!?

[SleepFail24]

I feel like an utter shit mum right now. dd1 had always been poor sleeper but is now finally sleeping though (well comes into our between 3am and 7am which I don't mind). Problem is getting her to sleep. She's 3 and her general behaviour has gone right downhill anyway. Loud, bossy, always hungry, demanding. Just annoying to be honest. Though she is also funny clever creative lovely (all the positives everyone would say about their 3 year old). We also have a new baby so I know some of dd1 attitude will be due to all that but hee sleeping isn't.

So I ebf and made mistake of feeding her to sleep. She'd only sleep that way for ages and weaned herself from night feeds around 2.25yrs. Since then needs me beside her for her to sleep (even went though phase of needing to rest her head in my arm but I managed to stop that quick as gave me dead arm!). DH did eventually manage to settle her and did quite frequently when baby arrived and I was recovering from birth etc. Now it's only me she won't let DH near her at bedtimes. So DH gets home around 630-7 and we take dd1 up for wash, teeth brush and pjs. It's a nightmare she won't listen won't do it runs a round. Then she gets 3 short books read and lights out. I tell her a few made up stories in quiet voices and she does sleep eventually usually by 830, sometimes nearer 9. It's far too late for her I know.

During this time DH is changing baby who is often very upset. She is also ebf and won't take a bottle (we are trying as dd1 refused and that was a nightmare). DD2 often upset sometimes needs to come in for a feed etc which I feel then disturbea dd1. By time dd1 is asleep we are both exhausted. I take over baby duty so DH can have his warmed up meal.

It's crazy right?! I don't know how to fix it and feel like it's all my fault. I don't want to do cc. DH did try it once and it was horrible. Dd1 in state and I was in tears downstairs. I tried gradual retreat but doesn't seem to matter she'll just come out the room. I want to try reward stickers but she doesn't seem to get them and it's not immediate i.e. I'd have to give her them in morning if she went to sleep well. So we can't go on like this. i was on own tonight and it was horrible. Baby crying and dd1 wouldn't stay in room without me so was half in half out her room trying to settle baby and how is dd1 suppose to sleep with all that anyway!?! So how to I fix this and how so I make sure this doesn't happen again with DD2!? We couldn't cope for another 3+ years of the same. So far she seems a better sleeper naturally. I am often feeding her to sleep but equally she'll be rocked okay and has once so far went to sleep in cot on own. What maps should she be having?! Dd1 was a nightmare for those too. Catnaps when young then mainly had to take her in pram then later car as for older or she just wouldn't nap. Never ever napped in cot. I remember going to a friends for lunch and she popped her similar aged DS into a sleep bag took him up to cot and left him and he was still asleep when we left 2hrs later!!! I couldn't believe it.

I feel like such a crap mum compared to everyone I meet. I feel like the scruff at nursery pick ups and the badly behaved children (though by all accounts she is generally ok at nursery...certainly no behaviour complains other than she was a bit Moany). I can't even get a meal out on the table for us all and I am letting dd1 watch far too much tv right now as I can't cope otherwise.

It sounds as though your DD1 is feeling pushed out by DD2. She also probably isn't tired enough when you are trying to shove her off to bed! Try this, when DH comes home sit down and have dinner together while DD2 plays in her playpen (if you have one) and DD1 has a play, shows her dad what she's done today etc. When DH has eaten let him and DD1 spend time together while you feed and settle DD2. When you have settled DD2 let DH bath DD1 then you give her a relaxed story time and settle her into bed. By this time she should be calm, happy and most probably tired and should go off to sleep a lot better. It will take a while to get into a good routine but once you have she won't feel that she is being packed off out of the way the minute her dad comes home, she will have had one to one time with her each of you without DD2 taking your attention, and will feel happier and more content. We have a real problem in this country with parents trying to get children off to sleep too early and then complaining that they get up at 6am! Putting DD 1 to bed at 8pm and her going off to sleep by 8.30 is better than spending 3 hours struggling to get her to sleep when she's not really tired. Also this way dad gets to spend time with DD1 on a 1 to 1 basis which will benefit their relationship.

SleepFail I had a similar situation, I felt I'd failed terribly as well (DD2 didn't sleep on her own till she was 6 and only then as I broke my arm and had to sleep sitting up. She's 13 now.) I remember DD1 being heartbroken when I had to go and sort out DD2, I used to be so tired she'd ask for another story and I'd scream at her. Reading your post brought it all back to me. DH would be in one bedroom, I'd be in the other, we'd be sterilising bottles for the next day at 10pm and so on then having to get in bed with DD2.

I suppose that's why I let DD2 just sleep with us, DD1 used to get in occasionally but hated it was so crowded - or when it was very desperate we'd put a mattress on the floor next to our bed and get us all in one room. DH complained non-stop but all I wanted to do was get everyone to sleep.

I could have written your post a couple of years ago, I think it's quite common to have kids who hate to get to sleep alone, and I found that my ds' sleep was very unsettled for months after dd was born. I just gave in for my own sanity. We bought a superking bed and I would get in with both kids, ds (4) would be cuddling into one side of me while I was breastfeeding baby dd to sleep. Once I had a spare hand I would read my kindle and when both were asleep I'd lift them into bed and cot. I did read books about attachment parenting and cosleeping which gave me alternative viewpoints on what bedtime 'should' be and made me feel a lot better about it as pre-children I'd always assumed I'd developed a strict routine but actually there are other approaches.

6.30 seems really early to me. My DC's went to bed when they were tired, we didn't have a fixed bedtime. Maybe try a later bedtime and be more flexible and relaxed about it. Take her to bed when she is sleepy.

Also, is her room dark? We had thick curtains and shut the door so that there was nothing else for our DC's to do but sleep. Any kind of light stimulation or toys could be a distraction for her.

How about try this.....
At a specific time every day when dd2 sleeps, make a point of saying:
"ooh, it's mummy and dd1 time now...what activity shall we do together today?"
That will let her know it's a special time for the two of you without dd1 there.
Then, rather than you and DH going up together to get her ready for bed, perhaps you could do that on your own.

It seems she misses 'you time.'
Could you DH then read her a story and sit on the bed, on bedroom floor, outside door etc u til she drops off?...giving you time for feeding dd2 and him time to be with dd1 before she sleeps.

Or try what redastherose said....that's good too, if not better,

It's similar in my house. If it doesn't work for you, by all means change it, but don't just because you think you should. It doesn't make you crap at all. I'm quite happy to snuggle them to sleep - they'll grow out of it.

Your evening sounds exactly like the ones we used to have!

Does she have a nap in day still? If so cut it out quick. She'll not be tired for bed otherwise.

Try this then:

• bath
• 3 short stories (in bed and with water if she has a drink at bedtime) whilst your husband gets baby ready for bed,
• then turn of light and tuck her in and give her a cuddle/kiss. NO funny stories or talking. Tell her no talking is allowed once light goes off and stick to it.
• once you've had a quick cuddle tell her you are just going to the loo or to get something.leave door a little open so it's not pitch black. Try and stay out of her room until she goes asleep but DO go back in every so often. If she wants you to stay say I'll be with you in a minute I just need to [x]. Make sure you do go back in tho so she trusts you. This will get her used to you not being there.
• go and feed baby to sleep.
• let husband burp and settle baby so you can eat or check on your daughter
• swap and let your husband eat if baby still not settled.
• once both settled have a big hug and high five with your oh!

You need to give punishments for if she gets out of bed once light off and rewards for going to sleep on her own - we used chocolate for a while (needs must!). Say she can have it the next day if she goes to sleep on her own.

Thanks again for all replies. It's good to hear lots of perspectives. Thanks for those who have shared their own experiences too. It's good to hear others have been there. I will try a lot of your suggestions. I especially like the sticker idea and the cebeebies radio as dd is obsessed with cebeebies right now! Plus just the giving her more attention and making sure she's worn out. She does to nursery but I'm reply on that to wear her out and not doing much with her after as I try to be home where I feel I have everything to hand.

I can't look back who said what so sorry for not replying individually but just some general replies...

• DH does spend time with dd1 when he goes home. He tried playing for 10-15mins silly games or something so we aren't trying to just shove dd1 upstairs asap

• dd1 will not let DH do anything regarding bedtimes. No stories no settling nothing. I'll work on some of your ideas here eh whoever suggested I go out. I could take baby to

Supermarket or something so I wasn't physically t In house. We did this before baby arrived a few times and it did work. It obviously not long term!

• co sleeping. A few of you mentioned. I did for ages with dd1 as only way we'd all sleep as she was feeding in night so much. I'd probably still do it but DH likes space in bed and finds it hard enough when dd comes through in middle of night. I've not co slept with DD2 at all. Oddly I feel guilty for this!! I'd like to have them all with me but DH doesn't share that particular parenting style and deep down I know it's probably not practical for us as we'll struggle to stop it I think

• dd1 does need more sleep. She seems tired a lot. She also often sleeps until 9am or just after which makes the mornings very rushed. She won't have that option for school though I know it's a long way off. So although it's probably true some don't need as much sleep as a 7pm bedtime would give I'm not sure I want to try later bedtimes as these 830/9pm sleeps are leaving her tired I feel.

• I can't think who said but thank you to whoever mentioned me sounding critical of dd1 in my post. I suppose I have fallen into habit of feeling angry with her. I shout a lot I'm ashamed to admit and just want her to so what I ask. Her overall behaviour is poor though as she won't do as asked etc. But yes I'll watch I'm not over critical. And as a few of you mentioned I need to spend more time or rather more positive time with her. I am with her all the time but too quick to try to get her to do her own thing or just be quiet an watch tv so I have peace I'm finding it hard to give her what she wants and see to baby and house and meals all at same time. Dd1 does get a lot of 1-2-1 time from some relatives and at nursery but it's not the same I know.

• the comment about why is being hungry bad behaviour...it's more that she is always wanting something to eat. I mean we'll literally have just eaten breakfast and she'll be asking for more food!! She can't stop asking for say a children's bar if she knows they are in cupboard! I've been giving in to this a lot just for an easy life which probably makes it worse. She'll help

herself to food too.

My DD(2.5) is the youngest has 2 older brothers and we have had the same nightmare sleeping routine. Boys bedtime is 8/8.30 latest but previously she didn't have fixed bedtime ( because i gave up trying to get her to bed at 8 too. Even if i put her to bed at 8 she would not fall asleep until 10 sometimes 12/1.) She would want me to stay with her and would constantly want to talk even if i stayed with her. Tried staying with her and ignoring to try and get her to sleep but nothing worked. If i left her in bed she would scream and follow me, tried closing door and sitting outside she would scream so loud would wake her brothers.
Fast forward 6 months and now manage to put her to bed around 8.30 sometimes a little later. She no longer naps during the day so she is tired by bedtime and will fall asleep. Also i make sure shes had most of her dinner so wont be hungry in middle of night. Had to do some tough love for a week would put her to bed read etc all done give goodnight kiss and leave. If she got out of bed put her straight back and left again. First time took an hour, second time 45 minutes slowly slowly she stayed in bed. She definately screamed her head off but that also reduced with time as she realised i was not going to give in. I stopped sitting on stairs to listen as it made me feel worse.It was really really hard but worth it in the end. We still have days she sleeps late especially if shes fallen asleep during the day. Those days i put her to bed later ( or play a running game before bed to tire her out).
I found there was no easy fix, it took a lot of strength not to give in when she cried and screamed but you can do it.

She's 3 school is a long way off and 10 - 15 minutes of play time with dad isn't enough! It really doesn't matter if she sleeps later for quite some time yet and the more time she can spend with dad on their own will help her be more accepting of him doing things for her generally. She needs to feel that she hasn't been pushed out by the new baby which means taking time to spend with her when she is the priority for both of you individually.

I would say that in the two hours (approx.) you take to do her bedtime routine, she is becoming over stimulated and over tired.

Bedtime should be short and sweet, wash/bath (mine never got bathed before bed, it had the opposite effect) teeth, toilet, one book, little chat, settle down. Why does she gets three books and then some more stories? It sounds like a very long drawn out bedtime. Does she need to have all that?

The getting out of bed it something almost every child goes through, rapid return is your friend. Take her back to bed, minimal talking, say good night and leave her. Repeat as necessary. It will take a while.

It reads like you take her up as soon as your dh gets home, so she has no time to see daddy either, which would be causing issues.

Add to that her little sister is staying up later than her (which is just how it is, however to your dd it will seem like an injustice), and that her sister gets time with daddy, and mummy is being taken away from her by the baby, and then the baby sometimes needs mummy when mummy is supposed to be with her, so further cutting into her time with you.

She is going through something massive in having to share you with her sister, but I do think packing her off to bed almost as soon as your dh gets in would be causing issues.

If she's not napping and sleeping 9pm-9am you need to start waking her in the mornings at 8.30 then 8am then 7.30.... her bed times willl move forward accordingly.

DH does spend a lot of time with her on weekends playing or going swimming softplay etc. So she does get a lot of dad time. He'll get up early with her too on weekends etc or if in a day off. But yes point taken it's not much time in the evening but unsure how it can be changed as she does need an earlier bedtime I still feel. The sleeping late means we end up behind for breakfast so hard to fit lunch jn before nursery starts.

I do spend time with her sorry if I've given false impression. We do crafts etc. Probably not as much as I'd like and yes DD2 does need priority sometimes when feeding or upset etc. How else can I do that those as if baby needs me she needs me right?! I involve dd1 and do try to spend time with her when I can. I guess she was my sole focus so I can see how she'd feel pushed out now wth DD2.

Ah yes she probably is over stimulated and over tired. Agree re bath and I don't give her every night but it's certainly not a calm event!!! The paragraph about baby taken away vu daddy. Mummy taken away baby etc etc makes a good point. It must seem confusing and inconsistent to her.

She does sometimes wake earlier say 7-8am 3/4 times a week. Doesn't seem to change much.

You need to wake her consistently at a set time - it'll take a few days to change her body clock. It's ok to wake her -it's not cc or any sleep training - you are just gently providing a set time at which to mark her body against every day. You can wake by bringing her into your bed for a cuddle if she's not already there. you just need to shift your routines by a few hours

Is she is feeling left out because of the new baby? If so you could try getting her to help with the new baby. My ds was 3.5 when the twins were born. They were prem. We made ds1 mummy's helper. He used to fetch the nappies, wipes etc when they needed changing. Twin babies that was often! He really enjoyed it, felt useful and even now when they're all teenagers he still 'parents' his siblings. We joke he's stricter than I am.
If she's not feeling left out ignore this.

They suddenly seem so big when you're holding a helpless newborn don't they?

Solutions to this problem in our house were ;
1 remind older child they are your baby forever & 'baby' them as much as possible. Looking at photo of them as baby also helped to show they had all the things that new baby has.
2 one on one with older, even 10 mins made a difference
3 daddy does bedtime for older
Or
4 mummy does bedtime feeding baby on knee in bed while reading to older, maybe manage to lie down between baby & older for sleep.
5 family bed (newborn didn't come to bed until I did)

Just do what suits your family, some kids find sleep hard (3/3 here), don't compare!!!

I have 5 DCs, none of whom were ready for sleep before 9pm, and they didn't nap from about age 2 either. I think a 6.30 start to bedtime is too early. The timing isn't great from the pov of family time either. It's as if her daddy comes in through one door and she immediately gets packed off through another, and they are like ships passing in the night.

Suggestions -

• Quiet time downstairs with the whole family until about 9 with teeth brushed about 7, giving you all time together downstairs. The key is that the time has to be quiet - DD could watch some quiet tv like the Beatrix Potter episodes that were out a good few years ago, or someone could read stories to her or supervise a quiet activity on an iPad, preferably DH.

• If she needs a bath daily (most children do not) then do the bathtime in the afternoon or in the morning if you are a sahm. You can top and tail after meals.

• If she has dropped her nap, she has to have quiet time so she can learn to unwind. After lunch might be a good time to try this. Quiet time could include some tv or dvd time perhaps.

• DH has to spend time taking care of DD on weekends and in the evenings, so that she gets used to him taking care of her. This time should include bathing and preparation of food, as well as meals and snacks together, and they should play together, he should read to her, take her to an activity like swimming, go to the library together, etc.

• Put a small mattress on the floor of your bedroom that will allow DD to come into your room but not into your bed.

• If she's always hungry then look at what you are serving to eat and how often. Three meals and two substantial snacks would be right for a 3 yo. She needs protein if she is always hunger. Sources include cottage cheese, Greek yogurt, meats, beans on toast. Try to avoid sugar, artificial colours.

• Physical activity built into the plan for the day - some kids need more gross motor opportunities than others.

• In general, a very structured day, as much as that is possible with an ebf baby, but the baby should settle into little routines that last a few weeks at a time too. Structure in the day can really help some children at bedtime as they get used to the predictability and the phrase 'Now it's time to...' starts to sink in and be observed.

This goes against accepted wisdom, but bedtime routines that involve entertainment of any sort are bonkers, in my book. Stories in bed, singing in bed, etc. can be an invitation to string it all out as long as possible and the end result is frustration and misery all around.

You're not a crap mum and your DH isn't a crap dad .

Children don't come with instruction manuals and what goes for one child won't wash with the next, even in the same family.

X-post there a bit .

I second waking her at a set time daily. She needs the regular rising time. It will have a knock on effect for the evening. Maybe start on a Friday at 7.30 or 8 am, work on it all weekend, and by Monday or Tuesday she should be in better shape.

This is how we started out too! I couldn't go out for years because of breastfeeding to sleep and DS refusing to take a bottle. I did all the putting to sleep but we always did family reading time first. I suggest you start that. You, DD, DH and baby all in for books. You can do the prep first if she needs that. You state clearly you'll be taking turns reading books with DH, because DH really loves reading and it's not fair to make him miss out.

If she takes to this you can then stay in there and feed baby while DH reads or holds books open for you to read. Then baby is fed and happy to leave with DH and you can lie down with DD.

When it was time for DP to start staying with DS to help him sleep I went upstairs and "had my headphones on" so couldn't hear him if he called for me. I actually did because I didn't want to ignore him, and I knew he would be fine once he got used to his dad doing bedtimes. The explanation helped him to be ok with me not coming when he called out, but you could just as easily go out or be on an important phone call.

We started doing every 2nd night mummy & DS night, or daddy & DS night, and that was firm and unchanging. The whole process took a couple of months but we wanted to be gentle and he is totally fine about it all now.

That said, we still do stay in with him to help him get to sleep. He is 3.5 and we all love it so this part isn't a problem for us. After stories however it's lights off and no talking. I tell him to get comfortable and there is no more talking because mummy is going to sleep. And I often do by accident. DP will sneak in and get me if it's too long. I find DS just goes straight off to sleep if he thinks I'm asleep. I have faked it before after notice that I won't be able to hear or answer when I'm asleep.

He is fighting bed times a bit now because he knows DTs are still awake and playing with the other parent. Having someone in there to cuddle him to sleep works super well though.

Oh and we do have a safety gate on his door so he's never been able to get out or sneak into our room. You could put one on there with the explanation that baby will be walking very soon and this will prevent her playing with DDs stuff or something similar.

OP it was me re the criticism, thanks for taking it as I meant it :) I think at this stage I'd generally decentralise (iyswim) the baby. Obviously not failing to look after her needs - but she doesn't need a routine at this stage, not as much as dd1 does. The baby needs your presence and closeness, the older child needs more specifically directed attention (which I think is more important than literal one-to-one time). At the beginning with my dc3, I would feed her to sleep while reading to my older two. They're a lot older than yours and were 10 and 8 already when she was born, but keeping that sacred reading time we had always had was important to me.

Dc2 spent a lot of time in a sling while I did stuff with dc1, or sitting on my lap playing with board books while I read to dc1.

Re the co-sleeping - tbh I think your dh should suck it up for a bit to make things easier for his dc and, importantly, for you. He might like his own space in bed, but don't we all? Could he sleep elsewhere some nights if uninterrupted sleep is that important to him (sorry, I don't have a great deal of truck with dhs being precious about bedspace and sleep. My dh, despite highly pressured, responsible and on occasion literally life-and-death job, still does his fair share of sleeping elsewhere and the odd waking, though I do try to cover those)?

Would you say there is a bit of a struggle going on in your house at the moment? I can remember those times only too well, although mine were closer together in age. It is easy to get into that trap of only concentrating on the difficult moments, and there seems so many of them! Decide what your non negotiable rules are, and concentrate on those only, so for me, not getting out of bed once in there, and not taking food (from what you've said these seem key to you too) there will be others that you want to include too, so getting washed and dressed quickly and eating meals rather than snacks maybe, I think a maximum of four, they are for you to decide.
This gives a structure to the day and adherence to those little rules can be rewarded with stickers, and a known , talked about present once the required stickers are achieved, as well as an immediate treat for the day, this doesn't have to be sweets. Really concentrate on any positive behaviour, even if it's things that she does all the time anyway. It all becomes positive and a much better atmosphere for everyone in the house.

I would also discuss with mine why these things were important and what their thoughts were on it, sounds a bit silly now, thinking of discussing things with young children, but I think they liked having an input, so agree what bedtime will look like, and what is right for you and her and then stick to it. Also making their own decisions, so giving a choice, 'right what would you like to do now, we can go outside gather up some leaves and paint them, or we can do some potato prints'.
I had become a screaming banshee before I realised that actually I had just got into that mindset, and lots of stuff I was upset about didn't really matter.
Good luck, but you are not a crap Mum, and I'm sure you will get through this bit really well, and you won't post on here again until teenage years hit!