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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to not want to be treated like a bargaining chip?

119 replies

VallarMorghulis · 16/02/2017 14:28

As a EU national who's lived here over 20 years, I am disgusted at the way the UK government is treating me and other like me like bargaining chips.

"Why didn't you apply for British citizenship?", you may ask. Well I don't have a spare £1500 behind the sofa that I could use to do so. Still I am planning to, I will beg and borrow if I need to, and hopefully, other than the bureaucratic hoops I'll have to jump through and the money I'll have to part with, it should be quite easy for me to do so.

However, for many other EU nationals, it's going to be impossible. Since 2015 a requirement to apply for citizenship is for EU nationals to first apply and obtain a permanent residence card. Many do not qualify, regardless of how long they have lived in this country, whether they have a British spouse or British children. For instance, stay at home parents, carers, students. Why? Because no-one told them that they needed a comprehensive health insurance to qualify. Universities even advise students that they don't need health insurance and that they should just register with a GP. The low earning self-employed are another category who do not qualify.

The government has said that they guarantee the right to stay of EU nationals who are lawfully residents in the UK. What does "lawfully" mean? Does that mean that people who do not qualify for permanent residency are not here lawfully? That they might be deported, or even face prison sentences? Some immigration lawyers think so (www.freemovement.org.uk/new-policies-and-forms-for-eu-nationals-show-hardening-home-office-position/). Hopefully
it will not come to this, but the uncertainty is causing much distress.

I am so fed up of being told "you'll be all right". What about my friends who might not be?

Take Patrizia, for instance, who's story is shown in the video below. She's Italian, met and fell in love with her husband, they have 2 children and decided she would be a SAHM. She's been here most of her adult life. And yet, her future is uncertain.

I am not a bargaining chip, no one should be treated this way.

OP posts:
Slightlyperturbedowlagain · 19/02/2017 18:07

No doubt one of my siblings who is British and has lived and worked in another EU country for 10 years feels exactly the same. Personally I feel it should be standard procedure when a country leaves the EU that both ways everyone legitimately elsewhere at the time is given permanent rights to remain.
However I think that we shouldn't be granting this 'upfront' for EU citizens in the U.K. unless UK citizens in that position elsewhere in the EU are granted this too. Otherwise people like my sibling will be left high and dry. Sorry. (Ps I voted remain so would obviously prefer this whole question to not have arisen).

CheshireChat · 20/02/2017 16:43

Thank you VallarMorghulis, I'll have a read and pass them on to my DP as well.

Just moved house so will be awhile before I get chance to look into this. Here's hoping I won't have to move abroad as this time nearly bloody killed us.

FrenchJunebug · 20/02/2017 17:21

I worry too. I've been here for over 25 years, pay my taxes, etc. I worry more for my son who is born here but as the law has changed (you do not get automatic citizenship by being born in the UK) doesn't have British nationality and feels more half British half French. What does it tell him about the country he loves!

FrenchJunebug · 20/02/2017 17:22

I also want to point out that I do not want to become a British citizen. I want the right to remain and continue living my life here and work and pay my taxes.

BoboChic · 21/02/2017 09:36

FrenchJuneBug - I am a British citizen living in France. I have been here for 25 years (with a couple of breaks). I would prefer not to have to become a French citizen but Brexit is going to remove the protections afforded by the EU. You and I will be no different to immigrants from outside the EU and we therefore need to get our heads around the fact that our changed status means we need to take different action for our long term security.

Notonyournellly · 21/02/2017 10:22

Levie I am in a very similar situation to you. I too have an elderly mum with EU passport who has lived here most of her life. She's not worried at the moment, but since the vote not to guarantee rights for EU residents I have a horrible feeling things could get difficult for her. My DH is an EU citizen too. Both have settled here, made a life here, contributed a lot to their local communities, and now they're being treated like second class citizens. What do the Leavers have to say on this matter apart from everything will be fine?

Birdsgottaf1y · 21/02/2017 10:45

""If things change, we would have to get leave to remain (lots of complicated paperwork) and pass an obligatory test in the language and culture (written and spoken), it's difficult and I don't know if we would pass, despite being OK for day to day use.""

There are movements concentrating on those that are disabled/have LDs, their future/well being is definitely under threat.

We aren't and haven't carried out our legal duties, let alone what was pledged, towards in regards to the Asylum seekers, including children, stuck in other countries, so I don't think the Government can be trusted on any of these issues.

BoboChic · 21/02/2017 12:33

...so I don't think the Government can be trusted on any of these issues.

Anyone who trusts the government needs their head read. I still think there is a major human rights issue here.

DJBaggySmalls · 21/02/2017 12:40

YANBU. I voted Remain. This govt has a very bad track record and I dont trust them.
You didnt have to apply for citizenship because you are a citizen of the EU. that was the point.

LadyPW · 21/02/2017 12:40

I wish May and her government would show some moral fibre and guarantee us the rights we have now.
But it's not about moral fibre, it's about equally ensuring the rights of British citizens abroad. Are you campaigning for them as well? If the government just say 'oh everyone can stay' then what leverage do they hold for ensuring that Brits abroad aren't disadvantaged? None, that's what. Realistically most people here and most Brits abroad will be unaffected because that's what both sides will have to agree - but to expect the government to just blindly hand over those rights without ensuring the same in return is short-sighted at best, if not selfish. Their job is to put British people first and some of those Brits live abroad.

BoboChic · 21/02/2017 12:43

Their job is to put British people first and some of those Brits live abroad.

As a British person living abroad, I am not getting any useful information as to what I might expect in future. The British have a poor track record of taking care of their citizens living abroad.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 21/02/2017 12:44

YANBU. Lots of us care.
Politically I think the best bet is with Lib Dems, but their numbers are so down in parliament that their voice is weak. They need some good strong Charismatic voices to gee up the population who would care, if they would only take notice.

LadyPW · 21/02/2017 12:51

As a British person living abroad, I am not getting any useful information as to what I might expect in future.
How can you though? Until it's been agreed, or at least properly started, then the government has no idea what the EU will offer. That's not the government's fault - that's the EU refusing to contemplate it yet.

Original poster
VallarMorghulis · 21/02/2017 12:53

@LadyPW If the government cared so much about Brits abroad they should have given them the right to vote (Brits who've lived abroad for over 15 years lose their right to vote in GE and referendums. They are totally disanfranchised, it's an outrage).

As for argument that there should be a mutual agreement on EU nationals resident in the UK and British citizens living in the EU, well of course there should be and it's most likely there will be. But every EU member state has its own immigration rules regarding non-EU citizens. There cannot be any negotiations until article 50 has been triggered, that's the rule. After article 50 has been triggered, negotiations on the status of migrants of both sides will start with each individual member state concerned, not with the EU as a whole.

For the UK government to guarantee the rights of EU nationals unilaterally would be the morally correct thing to do and it would show good will, which is bound to be helpful in future negotiations.

Additionally I'd like to point out to you that organisations representing Brits living in other EU countries have signed an open letter asking for the UK government to immediately and unilaterally guarantee the rights of EU nationals who live in the UK. They know that this would be to their advantage too.

OP posts:
BoboChic · 21/02/2017 12:55

No - the UK government is responsible for taking care of its own citizens who have, through absolutely no actions of their own, had their lives thrown into uncertainty and their human rights undermined. We need proper representation in government - at the moment we don't have any points of contact. There are citizens' pressure groups but nothing else concrete.

Yokohamajojo · 21/02/2017 13:03

Levie According to my group on FB, you can get hold of the ILR even if the passport is long gone, I think they said to make an application to the Home office

I am in the same boat as many here, been here 20 years, two kids, british husband, my FIL and his horrid wife voted leave and can't at all see our point of view, just keep saying that it will be fine!

I will when I can muster the energy apply for PR

LadyPW · 21/02/2017 13:10

For the UK government to guarantee the rights of EU nationals unilaterally would be the morally correct thing to do and it would show good will, which is bound to be helpful in future negotiations.
Goodwill is rarely taken into account in politics. Yes it would be the morally right thing to do, but it would be foolhardy in reality because we'd be giving up a valuable bargaining point.

Original poster
VallarMorghulis · 21/02/2017 14:30

Well @LadyPW the whole point of this post is that we, both British and EU migrants, don't want to be treated like bargaining chips. Clearly you think that's unreasonable.

OP posts:
drspouse · 21/02/2017 14:42

Vallar it's certainly true that Home Office staff were given vouchers for rejecting asylum claims.

link that I put in MYSELF.

BoboChic we are not talking about people moving to the UK from the EU. We are talking about people who are here already and have been living here with their families. Some of them have been working here for years, but now are SAHPs or retired or disabled/carers.

LadyPW · 21/02/2017 14:43

Well @LadyPW the whole point of this post is that we, both British and EU migrants, don't want to be treated like bargaining chips. Clearly you think that's unreasonable.
That's not what I'm saying at all. It's perfectly reasonable to not want to be treated as a bargaining chip, and hopefully that will be agreed early on in negotiations. My point is that it's unreasonable to blame the British government for the situation. I'm sure I read somewhere online (but haven't found the link again yet) that the govt actually wanted to agree the issue now, without waiting, but the EU refused until we've officially exited (or some countries agreed on principle but the EU as a whole refused - I think that was it). It has to be equitable for all those involved and without agreement from both sides it can't be yet.

drspouse · 21/02/2017 14:44

it would be foolhardy in reality

What's foolhardy in reality is to leave the EU. This isn't foolhardy, it's cruel.

LadyPW · 21/02/2017 14:44

drspouse That article is 3 years old so not relevant to this issue.

SanitysSake · 21/02/2017 14:52

You might want to have a look at this....

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/18/eu-citizens-right-to-stay-britain-chaos

By the looks of it, it's not necessarily a bargaining chip. Because, lets face it, there are a tonne of UK nationals living in other European States of which the PM absolutely has to consider.

More that they haven't got the foggiest idea as to how to approach the issue and manage it effectively and fairly - vis-a-vis the triggering of Article 50.

Although an absolute pain in the bum, looks like the process will be based on a burden of proof for those in the country who wish to remain and obtain permanent residence.

Not ideal, but as long as it protects the rights of those who have actively contributed and made their lives here and those who have been transitory and see it as an opportunity to 'chance their arm' at permanent residence - then I guess it will have to happen in this way.

Bureaucratic nightmare, of which the timescales are uncertain - my sympathies are with you.

drspouse · 21/02/2017 14:54

Unless they have introduced regulations to say they cannot do this any more in any circumstance, it is very relevant. It shows they think this is acceptable practice in some circumstances.

It is not unreasonable at all to blame the British government. They could easily have said "we will have soft Brexit, we will remain in the EEA and have freedom of movement, that is what is best for the country". The referendum did not ask about either of those things and we would have been leaving the EU as promised.

drspouse · 21/02/2017 14:58

as long as it protects the rights of those who have actively contributed and made their lives here

So people who have raised a family or cared for family members haven't contributed? What about disabled individuals - if a family moves here en masse for the parents to work but one child is disabled, can they not stay when they become adults? Do they have to go back to their country of birth where they cannot speak the language any more and have no support?