to say Organic food is a con?

[Calvinlookingforhobbs]

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YABU

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Given the vastly huger yields from intensive food production, the more salient question is...,

Can organic methods actually feed the world population?

Think about the effect of a billion Chinese getting hungry and wanting the crops from Canada.

I typically don't but organic mail you due to the cost. I like eating meat and think it a little strange that people get so het up about too much meat being eaten. The environmental damage done by meat production pails into insignificance when compared to the damage done by Chelsea tractors and sports cars! The fertilisers and pesticides used in arable farming have allowed much higher yields therfore less land is under the Plough and this has a certain level of environmental payback. The safety standards and run off requirements have improved over the last few years and many of the compounds sprayed breakdown in the environment much quicker than there earlier varieties. My point is that that the debate isn't so clear cut as organic good everything else bad!

Yes the yield from organic farming is 20% less then non organic

I'm surprised to read that people assume others eat organic food for a better taste? For me, if I have the choice of food grown without chemicals or food grown with, then I would always pick the organic one. I'm vegetarian but buy and prepare meat for my family, and will only buy organic because of the associated increase in welfare standards. Also, can't bear the idea of intensively reared meat, particularly poultry, base don animal suffering and the birds pumped full of antibiotics to limit spread of infection in their many conditions. Our food chain is very broken - awful production methods to produce high volume, and then loads of it is chucked.

There is some evidence of different nutritional profiles between organic and conventional food production in some items

of course it's a con.

organic food is full of harmful heavy metals from the pesticides they use. because they do use pesticides. just organic ones. organic means 'found in nature' not 'safe for human consumption' so the pesticides used in organic farming are generally less efficient and more poisonous.

it's also a less efficient farming method. because they don't use chemicals to protect crops, more of the crop dies, so they get less crop per square metre which adds to the cost. the chemicals used to protect crops from insect infestation are extensively tested and are safe for humans to consume.

i think it's an absolute con. it's a way for people to pat themselves on the back 'i care, i buy organic' but very few people appear to have actually researched what organic means. people say 'less chemicals' which isn't true. and 'better for the environment' also not true.

don't get me starts on 'free range'

The first con is to differentiate between organic and chemicals.
Everything organic is made of chemicals. Not all chemicals are organic, but things like salt and water are chemicals.

Anyway, it pays to look at farming practices rather than "organic" per se.
Organic farming tends to let produce grow more slowly, and naturally. It shouldn't use artificial hormones or antibiotics unless the animal is ill. It's better for the environment in general, but it could be more contaminated with gut bacteria and parasites, as it tends to use manure as fertiliser and animals are more exposed to the outside environment.

Why should we not get started on free range?
What is wrong with it? Please explain.
Why us it worse rhan keeping hens in tiny cages.

Can you also give us examples of these norganic pesticides. I always assumed it meant manure.

Manure is a fertiliser. Not a pesticide.

I think one of the main benefits of organic food is to avoid GM foods.

Well that was a nuanced argument from the Op...

Worth reading:

Myth busting.

blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/httpblogsscientificamericancomscience-sushi20110718mythbusting-101-organic-farming-conventional-agriculture/#

Look at the actual practices of the farms you buy from.

Nothing to do with taste, everything to do with eating unnecessary pesticides.

As for yields, the very best thing to do if you genuinely care about yields is too eat less meat. To produce One kilogram of chicken requires 2 kilo grams of grain, and for some meat like beef this can be as high as 7 kilograms.

I'm happy to pay that for less toxic chemicals in my body

It is a misconception that organic producers do not use insecticides etc. on their crops. It is also a misconception that products applied to crops that are "natural" are therefore by definition "not toxic".

I teach (nothing exciting, just English) at one of the leading Bio/Organic pesticide/insecticide/fungicide companies in the country where I live. Sometimes I think I am learning more than they are. I'm also starting to question my intelligence given that they have to dumb it down so much for me to understand the processes and mechanisms they are involved with. Last night my student was reduced to having me visualise micro-organisms as Minions before I was able to grasp the point she was making.

It's opening my eyes to how much I didn't even know that I didn't know about agriculture. And how it is actually pretty difficult to understand when you lack the vast foundation of knowledge the scientists and engineers in front of you have at their fingertips.

Some nights I go to bed feeling like I have the intellectual capacity of a potato.

Anyhow, my belief that organic was automatically chemical and toxin free, and always better for the environment... blown out of the water in 20 weeks of exposure to the knowledge and work of people who day in day out work on developing effective, non toxic alternatives to what is currently on offer in terms of insecticides/pesticides etc.

Never has a woman been so rapidly converted to washing the buggery out of anything non sentient that she intends to eat raw, regardless of source. I even have a salad spinner now. But perhaps should have spent more than 3 euros on one, cos the clips have snapped already and I have to practically lie on the lid while trying to whizz. Which is both inefficient and rather uncomfortable.

Morally I'd love to eat all organic, no chemicals, better for the environment, antibiotic resistance and all that...

Practically though that can't happen. Disabled and on benefits means I'm priced out of getting all organic.

I try. We have two meat meals a week which means I can afford to get organic meat delivered from that Riverford farm place.

But organic fruit and veg is too expensive for the sheer amount of veg and fruit we get through a week (fridge full) so that has to come from aldi.

I use organic food wherever possible for the reasons described above (healthier environment, animal welfare standards), but also because pesticides are endocrine disruptors (one of many sources we're exposed to daily), and there's all kinds of emerging evidence that they are detrimental to human health in many ways, including raising the risk of neurological and reproductive disorders. In the fetus and newborns the effects can be even more pronounced. The danger they present means the EU and other bodies have been talking about regulating them for some time, but are being a bit slow about actually taking action. I'm happy to pay a bit more the reduce the risk to my family's health.

Some recent studies:

link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00204-016-1920-7

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27984170

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27625632

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4947579/

www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(16)61389-4/fulltext

(I could keep going all day, but I think that'll do for now!)

The defence of organic foods goes along the lines of:

(1) No "chemicals" / better for you. As others have pointed out, organic farming does use chemicals just different ones. For example copper sulphate is used as a pesticide. It's not good for you.

(2) Better for the environment. Given you'd have to plough up vast areas to get the same yield as for conventional farming I doubt it.

(3) Tastes better. See the Penn & Teller clip for a rebuttal of this.

I have a DM who is evangelical about organic. She will deploy one of 1, 2 or 3. I will; counter. She will then switch to one of the other two. Repeatedly.

Wouldn't care if she didn't trying to emotionally blackmail me into vastly increasing the cost of my weekly shop.

The trouble with the free range label is that what often happens is the farmers open a little door in the side of the chicken shed. In theory, that gives the chickens access to the outside, but most chickens won't go outside because they've been reared indoors their entire lives and it's frightening. Also, they are still packed in pretty tightly in the shed, and even if a chicken wants to go outside, she'd have to cross the path/territory of hundreds of others in order to reach the door; they won't do that.

It's still overcrowded, unhygienic and unnatural for the birds. The idea of free range is very nice but this isn't some backyard hen operation - it's still industrial sheds chocked full of chickens who only live 18 months.

I read a an American that said because of mass produce (non organic) there, even organic produce is pollinated by non gm crops. Don't know how true this is though!

Even my granny used pesticides on her home-grown tomatoes and cucumbers...how else are you going to stop pests from eating your produce?

I buy organic if it looks and smells better than its non-organic counterpart. The organic tomatoes I buy are 3 times the size, and much redder, than the teeny-tiny non-organic counterparts (which smell of absolutely nothing). If your tomato smells strongly of a tomato then that's a good sign!

I don't favour organic for any other reason - if the non-organic version looked and smelled better, then I would buy that. Otherwise you ARE buying in to a con, because you're ignoring your own senses.

Your reasons for the statement in your title are fascinating OP

I buy free range organic meat because of welfare standards and eat less meat as a result because it does cost more. I grow quite a few of my own vegetables and would never consider using pesticide. There are nature friendly alternatives that I can use which would not be possible for a farmer.

I think it is a con at the supermarkets. The big name markets - your coles and woolies here in oz, the sainsburies and what not in the uk - well they take the mickey with the regular priced fruit and veg, let alone the organic.
In my city you have quite a few options - you can buy direct from farmers at farmers markets, tastes way better and cheaper than regular veg at the supermarket. You can use local collectives that send you a seasonal box once a week - always great as you try things you would never normally know about, and get more used to the idea that you shouldn't fly everything all around the world just so you can eat oranges in summer.
If you grow your own - I guarantee you will never look back. It's often sweeter, more succulent - and it rots - which is actually a good thing. It's slightly disturbing how old some fruit and veg is at the supermarket.
Oh, and much better for the environment, especially the collapsing bee population.

So yes - on one hand it is a con - but it is the supermarkets working the trick

Thank you all for you're replies, I am fully signed up to organic living and have been trying to explain the benefits for my DF. You have all helped enormously 😊

So you just wanted arguments for organic living?

It might have been better if you had said that in your op...