to wonder whether this is terrible 2's or just personality???

[Bellyrub1980]

My daughter is 2 and she is.... erm... very spirited.

Now, I know 2 is a difficult age, and common enough for people to have created the title 'terrible twos' ... but how can anyone tell the difference between what is just a challenging time developmentally, and what is basically just the child's personality.

My daughter is amazing in lots of ways, and I love her dearly, but (oh dear lord!!!) she is testing every boundary possible at the moment. I've read a few books, I've tried several different techniques, but where things have apparently 'worked a dream' with other children, for our daughter it feels like a constant battle.

Neither me or my husband were naughty, both our parents have said we were incredibly placid children. I doubt this is relevant even, but as a result we've never experienced discipline ourselves.... so we're not really sure what to do and maybe we're just a bit shit at it? I know her behaviour is a direct result of our behaviour but I'm at a loss as to what else I can try! Nothing works. I've positive parented the LIFE out of her.... it doesn't stop the naughtiness!!!!

(Can children smell fear??)

Anyway, I'm not really sure why I'm posting this, other than to get it out there. And maybe to hear that your children were complete fucking nightmares a bit challenging at 2, but they became delightful at 3.... or something like that!!

Sounds exactly like my 2.5 year old. It's exhausting! Spent most of the day feeling like a rubbish parent. Greatly reassured by this thread.

Maybe leave the swimming for a while if it's not working. I think sometimes you just have to get stuff done "Teeth time now", "Buggy time" and you do it regardless of the fuss but don't say anything, don't engage. Then try to go at her pace or do something on her terms for a bit. It's really hard to be patient through it all! But it will pass. Not sure personality is 100% fixed at any time in our lives, but especially not so young.

Thank you so much for all the replies. Will definitely try all the suggestions and persevere.

It's just good to know this is normal behavioural stuff and not necessarily how we will be living forever.

My mum keeps reminding me 'but she's only 2!' And I think it's hard to put that in perspective when you have nothing to compare it too.

I do think she's over tired in the evenings. We're at an awkward stage where she only gets tired enough to nap at around 4/5pm when it's too late in the day. Unless we delay her bedtime till 8. So nowadays she powers through till 6.30.

She gets constant one to one interaction. She makes it impossible to do anything else, if I'm doing housework she's there, right beside me 'helping'. Otherwise we're playing or out and about. Other parents have remarked that even at kids parties I'm the only one who's actually on the floor constantly interacting with my child. It's pretty exhausting actually, and I've tried leaving her to play independently but 30 seconds later she either cries or gets bored and finds me. One of the big things I try to reward her for is playing quietly on her own as I think this is a skill she really needs to develop. Perhaps I'm giving her too much 121 attention?! (Have no idea how else I'd get through the day though....?!)

I know her grandparents have even more time to give her one to one attention and they avoid discipline as much as possible by simply placating her every whim. They genuinely seem to think she's an angel and that I'm being too hard on her.

Thank you for all the suggestions.

Part of me loves the fact that she's strong willed, decisive and stubborn. It's a strength of character I've never had. And yes, maybe she feels this is necessary as I'm not taking charge.

Oh it's a mind field!!! Am I being too strong? Or too feeble??

designedforlife that's exactly how I've been feeling!!

My 2 nearly 3 yo dd sounds very similar to your dd. bedtimes are such a nightmare that I dread if dh is not there. It's that bad. Her tantrums are epic and often. So challenging. But she is the youngest of 3 dc and my oldest daughter was also similar to this but not to quite the extent of Dd. it is frustration mainly. It will get better be sure of that but how she may always have a string character.

Oh my goodness gracious!i think this is my post from the past! My DC was exactly like this at that age! Everything that you describe- nothing seemed to work- I constantly beat myself up about it and thought I was doing a horrendous job! Can I please reassure you that it all turned out fine- got a wonderfully behaved lovely child now with great manners- but it took a long time ( it seemed long, was actually only a few months) they are such little monkeys at this age- best advise is "this too will pass" and it does- until the next bit comes. Please don't worry. She is still young and you are doing everything right- you will realise in a few months! And then you will be posting advice to others about the same thing! It is so hard to see the other side though when you are right in the middle of it! Best of luck and chin up! It WILL pass.

Lots of good suggestions above.

I've had one that was very tantrumy and full on. He also reacted badly to being hungry or tired, so that may be something to look out for. Don't expect that magic technique that works wonders to appear. Don't be worried about trying new things. Don't assume you are failing if you have to keep persevering, it's a long haul game with battles and constant reinforcing.

That one has been through many a tempestuous phase but he's now 16 year and I get told what a cool, mature and nice guy he is. He's not always like that with me but he's enthusiastic about his future, has empathy, good friends and gets on with his own life. Good self resilience I suppose.

My other one was always placid and never really had tantrums. Sounds good but I suppose one by product is that getting told off has a greater effect on him and he's not used to it. It's water off a ducks back to his older brother, which can serve better as an older teen and in work when there WILL be negativity from managers, teachers and peers He gets over it much quicker and moves on.

I could have written every word of your post. Sounds perfectly normal to me (at least I bloody hope so).

"maybe to hear that your children were complete fucking nightmares a bit challenging at 2, but they became delightful at 3"

Ah-ha, ha, ha, ha............................ no.

With a lot of effort, patience, firmness etc, they get better. More consistent, able to reflect and understand a bit more. Then they get a sniffle, and are evil again.

I've only reached 3 and 1/2 with DD, someone tell me it's fluffy bunny land from 4 onwards please?

Oh it's a mind field!!! Am I being too strong? Or too feeble?? Belly, firstly TRUST YOURSELF. Give yourself permission to fail and make mistakes. Remember, don't aim to be the world's best parent. Aim to be "good enough". Honestly, I became a much, much, much better parent when I trusted myself, my instincts etc and my relationship with DD improved massively too (she's 15 now). I wish I'd done this earlier, but it didn't happen until she was about 7. KNOW your child and trust yourself.

There's some great advice on here, but I'm going to add a couple of things. But it's not speaking from experience because I had a placid one too. (but I do deliver parenting courses, albeit aimed at older children).

Having read your updates, I feel quite split. I likes a lot how adoring your DDs GPs are. But given what the swimming lady said, I think they're ignoring a lot. part of me thinks, well... your DD is only a teeny tot (in which case, stop worrying and leave it there for her to develop out of), but I am concerned on your behalf about the kicking/spitting etc, because although all of those are common (honestly!) they are very anti-social and unpleasant for others to experience.

So, like I said, you've had good advice, and you say you're reading all the books, so if you've already this this, sorry for the repetition.

• be very specific. Don't say "that's not very nice" or "I don't like that". Your DD won't know what you're talking about... Could be the wallpaper. NAME the "thing".
• Use "I statements". Even though she's young, they are very powerful. I.e. "when you do X it makes me feel y because...."
• Give a CLEAR choice and a consequence (as others have said, make it related to the 'thing'). "Bellybaby, I don't like it when you do abc, and I'm asking you to stop. You can keep on doing abc, in which case xxx or you can stop doing abc and we'll do yyy (something much nicer)"
• As others have said, PRAISE what you like, and where you can ignore what you don't - don't feel the flames.
• Tell her you love her a LOT and name that too. "When you do X, Bellybaby, I am so full of love for you" "you are so funny and clever when you do Y, and it makes me love you even more, even though that's not even possible, but I do"
• Be the grown up where you can. You describe a bed time routine which mainly works, except for - especially - 1 element (the tooth brushing). But you say later she lets you brush her teeth in her cot and she likes it. She can't NOT brush her teeth, but change the routine in some way and see if that helps. I get it's a faff, but you say she likes it when you do it when she's in bed, so why not build that in as a reward for the other sticky bits? "If you don't throw your toys around, as a special treat, shall mummy brush your teeth in bed for you?" Hey... if it works!

And if she hates a bedtime story? Fine - have a song or a cuddle instead.

Good luck, and you don't sound like you're far away. Actually, you sound like a lovely mum.

donquixotedelamancha it's fluffy-bunny land with Unicorns at 3 3/4! Honest! (p.s. I'm writing this NOW because my valentines night tonight was spent waiting to pick 15 yr old up from a party 25 miles away from a field - in effing February . "It was so fun". I'm so tired, and so keen to unwind for a bit before going to bed. I await fluffy bunny land!)

Sorry, just remembered, I had other things to say about this bit...
Having read your updates, I feel quite split. I likes a lot how adoring your DDs GPs are. But given what the swimming lady said, I think they're ignoring a lot. part of me thinks, well... your DD is only a teeny tot (in which case, stop worrying and leave it there for her to develop out of), but I am concerned on your behalf about the kicking/spitting etc, because although all of those are common (honestly!) they are very anti-social and unpleasant for others to experience.
(apology if it's crass to quote your own thread).

Firstly, I think making a 2 yr old miss a whole session was quite harsh. If you're pulling her out, take her home. Or make her miss 5 mins and then let her go back. Also, missing a whole session - there's no opportunity there for her to have another go and get it right (doing it next week is too late, she won't remember) - so a brief time out, and an opportunity to go again and do it better this time (and lots of praise)

Second, I think you and DH could benefit from a very frank discussion with the GPs (over lots of alcohol when DD is asleep). ARE they ignoring too much? Are you being too harsh (they will have their view, which you should listen to, but remember it's ultimately your child and your choice). If after hearing what they've got to say, you agree that you are being too harsh, then back off and relax and hope they are right.
If they agree they are ignoring a lot, get a plan of action together with them that you ALL stick to. Have certain "red flags" that you ALL agree a behaviour plan with/on. The GPs sound amazing and lovely (and they're doing a lot, which is fabulous).

Thank you for that advice Puddlejumper, I copied and pasted it into a text to my husband so we can chat it through properly tomorrow.

And thank you for the encouragement!

I must say, for anyone with a 1 year old reading this now dreading the 'twos' that it really isn't all bad. And although her challenging behaviour has really ramped up several notches over the last few months so has her ability to be amazingly cute and funny. So I guess that's the pay off.

I can cope with this if I know it's normal. She has a few friends of a similar age, the closest in age is my best friends son and he is quite simply heaven on earth. (My daughter is a TERRIBLE influence on him) but my friend assures me that a few months ago they were working through quite a nasty biting phase, that I was completely oblivious to, despite spending at least one day a week with him. So I guess my 'mummy-brain' probably magnifies the issue.

A chat with the GP's is definitely on the cards.

It is ABSOLUTELY normal. It's not every child, but it is very many.

And please remember, at 2 your DD has NO idea about consequences... She doesn't know it's vile to have her spit in your face, and she'll have NO idea she can actually properly hurt you.... How could she think that when she's only as tall as your knees (unless you're a massive short-arse!)?

btw, about 3 posts ago, I wrote don't feel the flames. I meant feed!

Right, enough now.

g'night.

the drying hair? is it the noise or the feel of the hair drying? can you change what you do? does she have sensory issues or just a dislike of hair drying?

Mostly now we resort to 2 mins in her cot without her comforter until she calms down and then she lets me brush her teeth easily. Even giggles and enjoys it. then do this every time. simple. til she buggers that up as well

Well yes she has always got very easily over stimulated. This was obvious to me from newborn stage. Noisy or busy environments, for example, would wind her up and I'd often find a quite room for her to calm down in. Which I think is probably why the 'go to your room' technique is the only thing that seems to work now. She doesn't have any kind of diagnosis, but then I've never discussed her behaviour with a health visitor or anything.

Will try all the suggestions and see where we are in a few months. Her 2 year check should be coming up soon.

We've turned the hair dryer into a game where we use it to fight off daddy who is coming to tickle her. It takes 2500x longer to dry her hair, but it limits the stress!!

Wait until you hit threenager

Oh and reading back that's all normal! Been through this 3 times she doesn't need a diagnosis!

DD3 hates the hairdryer and hand dryers, they all did it's scary loud for a child!

I have only had placid children but my best friend's son is just like what you describe. It's actually reassuring to me to read this thread and be reminded not to judge her parenting and that it's normal! I can't believe how naughty and disobedient the child is.

As you say, when they're 'good', they're lovely and affectionate and full of spirit and life in a positive way.

Other than just accepting that this is her for now, I would say have you tried cutting out food additives?

My DC1 is easily overstimulated too. She hated parties when all other children loved it. She hated fireworks too. And anywhere with too many children.

Have you read the highly sensitive child
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008CBDOQG?tag=mumsnetforum-21

The author has a website and there are websites about this too. It helps me understands DC1 more. DH is highly sensitive too which we learned from the book.

If it gives you hope my DD was a nightmare from birth to 14 years. She is now an amazing young woman of 29. I think she was just very strong willed which is a blessing later in life! Take comfort!

Sorry if this has already been said-
Firstly, 'don't hit mummy' 'don't sleep mummy'- can actually reinforce the behaviour as she's picking up on the action word- hit, slap. Think of a 'wet paint' sign- what do most people do? Still touch it just to see.
Secondly, you said you've tried lots of different techniques. But how long are you trying each individual one for? You won't see a difference after just a day or two. You have to try it for a few weeks to reinforce what you are asking. Does that make sense?

I read that in Denmark these year are called ' the boundary years' It's their job to test boundaries to understand where limits are and to make sense of the world. This made all the difference to how I feel about and react to their behaviour. It's not 'naughty'.

Perhaps I'm giving her too much 121 attention?!

I don't think this is true, it's great she's getting interaction but you can try to phase it out gently. My DD never played independently before about 4 but if I was cooking or cleaning I wouldn't just drop what I was doing to play with her. She could either be with me and help out or I'd start a game close by and once she was engaged with it she'd be happy for me to get on and get stuff done.