Aibu to feel like a second class citizen for not sharing the faith? Job related.

[witsender]

I tried to name change but couldn't, so hey ho.

I work for a Christian charity. I am agnostic and this has never been an issue, I started as a volunteer and when a job came up I started working there. I love my job, and bar the odd comment from volunteers expressing the belief that Christians/Christian volunteers are better it has all been fine.

A new role has come up which is a step up. I have all the relevant experience and know the organisation too,but it has increasingly been made clear that I wouldn't get it as I am not a Christian. Obviously this hasn't been said upfront but 4 out of the 5 trustees are religious and want a believer and have said as much, and the manager has said that in his heart of hearts he wants someone of the faith to help him 'uphold the moral code' and to ensure the Christian element isn't diluted. At the same time they are telling me that I am welcome to apply.

This has really tainted the whole thing for me. The work we do is in no way faith based, so it doesn't impact my work or complete dedication. It makes me feel like a second class citizen to be honest, and even if by some miracle (excuse the pun) I were to get the job, I feel like it would be even though most of the people there don't want me.

I can't decide if I am being over sensitive though?

As an agnostic I take real offence at his attitude that a non practising christian wouldn't be able to uphold the moral code.

My son's old primary school (state, not church) had about 4-5 practicing christian teachers who all went to a local school, and they tried for some years to get me to do the alpha course. They were like dogs with bones, and in the end I had to be blatant that I'm not practising and wouldn't be doing it. They showed their true colours when I had personal problems a few years later, and were most unchristian in their attitudes.

Before my son even went to primary school I went to a few playgroups, one of them at another local church. Again, got roped into going to church one Sunday. It just happened to be a Sunday that the vicar decided to urge his congregation to write to MP's and get them to vote against the adoption bill that was going through at the time because it wsa going to allow gay couples to adopt. He said how damaging it was for children to be brought up by any other family than that of a mother AND a father and no other would do (gay, single parent). Knowing full well at the time I was bringing my disabled son up as a single parent.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the hypocricy by SOME people that practice religion is breath taking. Poor Jesus (if he existed) - surely he'd be appalled by the actions of some of his followers. I'm not saying all are - I know 3 people that are practising christians that would never act like that. It doesn't matter what you believe, it doesn't affect someone's morals, and I know many non followers who have better morals than most of the followers I know.

I'd do what AmeliaJack suggests. Have the interview. But I couldn't work there after that!

The only way to change these type of mindsets Highway is from the inside out. Wits has an opportunity to challenge the Trustees' narrow thinking - which will actually make them better Christians.

Besides we know that the manager wants a Christian - you have no idea how the others feel really. You might already have an ally on the board, you just need to give them enough ammunition to fight your corner.

Don't go in aggressive, be brilliant, be passionate, brimming with ideas and enthusiasm.

Not sure Jesus was about the whole exclude thing....I'm pretty sure he said something along the lines of 'you lot, leave the judgey stuff to me'. Hate hate hate when people use religion to justify prejudice. They sound pretty crap Christians tbh. Hide a dig recorder or phones voice recorder then get them down saying it to you!!

Bunny you are right not about the recorder that's illegal Jesus spent lots of his time with time with outsiders: lepers, disgraced women, people of other faiths and races, even tax collectors.

Is it a foodbank. Affiliated to Trussel Trust?

I don't think it's illegal to record it? I think that's a good idea

You work for a Christian charity. I can't understand why this has come as a surprise to you.

I think the 'moral code' thing needs unpicking, why not ask the manager exactly what he means by it. Presumably the moral code refers to things like honesty, integrity, loving your neighbour etc etc which you would be able to demonstrate you followed. I suppose the job has a person spec, which you would meet (they couldn't put being a christian on that)- then the interview questions should relate to the actual job. Have you looked at the ACAS website to see if there's any guidance? If you really want the job I'd be pointing out that they have to abide by equalities and employment legislation. You wouldn't want to actually pursue a case, but they equally wouldn't want to risk it.

I agree with all the posts before, and am not going to defend discrimination on religious grounds for a job where being religious isn't necessary. I am a Christian. The only thing I wonder is, where is it ok to draw the line. Bear with me, I'm working this out as I type...

Say a group of Christians set up a christian charity to help people because they are Christians, and publicise it through churches and Christian groups. If it gets very successful and goes mainstream, they may still want to keep the christian character of it. So they recruit and it builds and the original people move on... If they don't recruit with any faith bias at all, then it won't be a Christian charity any more. It may still have the same name and be known as a Christian charity but not actually be one. It could end up with a quite different ethos.

Take faith schools (and I know a lot of people dislike them), if they do not recruit any faith teachers, then they are not really a faith school. And many parents want to send children to a faith school.

So how do we 'not discriminate' whole also keeping a quality which was important to the original idea?

"Under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA), it is not illegal for individuals to tape conversations provided the recording is for their own use. Recording or monitoring is only prohibited where some of the contents of the communication are made available to a third party."

So yes, if the purpose of the recording was for evidence it wouldn't be legal. And blackmail is obviously illegal.

Great post from Donquixote.

I agree with Popcorn as well that moral code and being Christian are quite different things, and someone who is not Christian may well have the same moral code/ethics/outlook on life as a Christian - how if the charity is Christian then you can understand the founders wanting it to remain so, so it keeps its original qualities/belief.

It's perfectly ok for some organisations and roles to have a faith criteria. Ive got friends working for church projects and it's a 'genuine occupational requirement' for somebody to have that faith. Yes, other candidates might be qualified but the organisation is faith based so its qualifications + faith.
It's the same as some charities workinh with female domestic violence victims having a requirement of a female worker. Or wanting to employ somebody who is deaf and first language BSL speaker to work with other deaf people.

Genuine occupational requirements are allowed in law.

The work we do is in no way faith based, so it doesn't impact my work or complete dedication

Doesn't sound like a genuine occupational requirement to me.

It is allowed to say that there is a Genuine Occupational Requirement why the appointment should be a Christian/Muslim/black person/woman etc and so an organisation has to be able to demonstrate why this is, so for example, the person will be working with young women who have been raped so there's a GOR that it should be a woman.

Speaking as a Christian I would agree with the dilemma that Pickle described and this isn't just a Christian thing, but suppose a mosque wanted to run a toddler group and lots of the parents were buddhist and wanted to be on the committee and suggested a meditation slot? The purpose of the group to provide a place for muslim mums and their babies would be lost.

For a particular job I think an organisation should be able to demonstrate that the post holder will be required to engage in specifically Christian, spiritual activities as essential parts of the role, e.g. leading prayers in church groups or in the office, preaching at supporting churches on Sundays etc. If this is the case then the job description should state the GOR and the trustees should be prepared to explain why. If the JD doesn't say this specifically, or doesn't mention spiritual type activities then apply, but maybe ask the question at interview.

YANBU. I worked at a large Christian charity some years ago. It was a requirement for trustees to be Anglicans, staff not so much. My team was largely atheist and came in for a lot of stick from senior management despite beating our targets. Twelve of us left in a year. It's such a shame, the charity did fantastic work on the ground but the atmosphere was massively toxic

Had exactly the same thing in my Jewish charity (I'm not Jewish, and there's nothing in my JD I'd be able to do better if I was). Twice applied for a promotion for the job I'd been already doing after my manager left. Told in not a very roundabout way that they were really looking for someone with experience 'of the community'. Wasn't even given an interview (even though was clearly good enough to do the role for almost a year). Felt really rubbish about it and have now found another job. I care about the cause and the charity as well, and I'd be lying if I said it hasn't demotivated me. I'd fight hard for the promotion and if you don't get it put exactly the same amount of energy and enthusiasm into finding yourself a new role, because I guarantee, it will bring you down especially if you're reporting in to the person who does get the job. The sector desperately needs people as passionate as you and (in London at least) it's very much a job hunters market at the moment. Good luck!

It is very insulting to be told that you are immoral if you don't share a certain belief . all religions seem to do this , so much for tolerance.

Op, you work for intolerant people. They won't change.

I'm struggling with how I feel at the moment. On the one hand, my belief in what we do should override my want for promotion...Am I being hypocritical to put my feelings above the work whilst complaining that they are?

But on the other hand, I have worked there for 2 years, so I'm good enough for some roles (presumably less influential ones) but not others. What gets me is the implication that my dedication to what we do is somehow less because I do it for reasons of my own (my 'moral code' if you like) and not His.

**The work we do is in no way faith based, so it doesn't impact my work or complete dedication
Doesn't sound like a genuine occupational requirement to me.

-- My friend's childcare type work wasnt explicitly spiritual, but the project was a faith based project. The team would meet for prayer each week and believed that the project was part of living the faith by providing services to disadvantaged communities. They weren't preaching or anything, but i can see why they'd want practcing Christians to staff a Christian project.

OP. I get why you feel that way, but i can also see it from their point of view. If part of steering the charity/organisation comes out of faith and study of faith etc then how might you feel if they're discussing plans in relation to faith or prayer?
It doesnt sound like they think you are bad at your job, just that being a practciing Christian is best for the post they're advertising.

Alpanini - Communities can be funny. Ive worked in faith groups as a member of that religion and even then there's a lot of unwritten stuff that would have been almost impossible to deal with as a total outsider. In my case it was the more evangelical side of things not approving of my liberal ethical views. I can entirely see why some posts require someone with a particukar characteristic.

.... not read all the replies .....

And these people call themselves christians? I suggest you hand them a bible, along with your resignation letter, and tell them to read it. I always thought christians were people who supported the principles of inclusion, equality and tolerance. I wouldn't want to work for an organisation which is clearly discriminating against you on the basis of your religious beliefs, or lack of them.

Not sharing the faith of the organisation you work for makes no difference at some levels. Your job may not directly require faith in its performance. The overall founding principle, identity and ethos of the company could though, even if not directly reflected in the day to day work. I think it's ok for a company to want to preserve its identity, isn't it?

Think of an Eco/ethical company. One founded on a desire for social justice and environmental responsibility. You don't need to be green in order to do the jobs in that company, but to manage it surely you do?
It's sad when companies like Cadbury's get bought out by big commercial companies and lose their distinctiveness.

This is true, but the role itself doesn't require any faith. I have absolute respect for the faith shared by some of the staff/volunteers there, I just don't share it. This wouldn't be apparent to anyone however, as it doesn't come up in the day to day.

Just as an aside, am loving that Cadburys have been named as an example when discussing ethics for a region-based organisation Sorry, back to the serious stuff

It did used to be, didn't it? Social justice, Quakers, etc?