Mensa - Intelligence - Nature/Nurture

[SingingInTheRainstorm]

I've got a couple of questions, the first is, if you've passed the Mensa stuff, is there any point to paying the yearly subscription fee? Do we have any Mensa bods on here?

Also is intelligence nature or nurture. Both my DC have their Dads features, his hair, his lack of interest anything academic, his lack of interest reading. There's little that says they're my children, apart from a certificate for 16 months of morning sickness.

On holiday a few years back I had my books out giving them interesting facts. DD & DS were giggling, I asked what was funny, they said why do you have to be so boring.

When I was there age I read for enjoyment, still do, loved learning stuff, my parents weren't that academic so it was all off my own back, my other siblings weren't pushed like I wasn't, they scraped through school.

My latest trick is to read a book in front of them, to see if they see me reading and think, oh I'll grab a book. It's early days but all I've got so far is, what you reading for?

Do you think kids are either intelligent and interested, or they just want to mess about. I was reiterating interesting facts about where we were, history etc. They're at an age to appreciate it if they wanted too.

Both are average in ability, DS is in a lower set for maths. DD is middle sets for both maths & English. I cruised along in the top set with little effort, but never talk about it. I know it's silly but I was hoping they'd inherit something from me that was good.

Mine are 6 and 9 and both into maths in a big way and i'd say are bordering on gifted in that area for their ages. I've never sat them down and made them learn stuff but because i'm very mathematically minded (did it as far as A Level...love maths) it just came naturally to me.

So from when they were babies i'd be counting the stairs to them...counting everything in fact, when they were playing with their blocks and cars i'd put them into two piles and talk about even numbers (at a basic level!) and so on. I love the maths bit in Countdown and recorded/watched it regularly in the evenings, just that ten minutes...I can remember ds1 at age 2 watching me do it and insisting I 'do one for him' that he could work out...so that became a regular, we'd both sit with a pad and paper and do our own sums for ten minutes a night when it was on.

Anyway, age 9 and 6 and they're both far ahead of where they should be in maths. They both love it and now ask for me to do some maths with them a couple of times a week. Ds1 has progressed to doing the Countdown maths bit by himself, and usually managing it, and ds2 is nearly there and gives it a good bash, aged 6.

I'm sure they both would have been bright but don't think they would have been so far along in maths if they hadn't had the influence of a parent who loved it, so it's mainly nurture in the specifics IMO.

Intelligence isn't about academic ability.

My latest trick is to read a book in front of them, to see if they see me reading and think, oh I'll grab a book. It's early days but all I've got so far is, what you reading for?

This to me screams that you are trying to induce something rather than it being a natural process. Surely if you are an avid reader they have seen you reading before now? Did you not do bedtime stories or read books with them since birth they were very young?

Are you hoping to be on the next Child Genius OP?

A PP above said being a member of Mensa looks good on the CV. I disagree. I think it would make you look like a smug and superior twat. Surely your experience and aptitude for the job are what's important.

I do well in IQ type tests, so that supposedly makes me pretty intelligent, but I'm chuffing useless.

Intellligence is something you're born with, but the right sort of 'nurture' can help to make the most of it; as can hard work, practice and the desire to learn or succeed.

Thinking about it, those IQ and Mensa type tests get easier with practice, too, although IQ is meant to be something constant!

I used to be a member of mensa. I found it very dull.

Passing the IQ tests was a great confidence boost for me as I had always been told I was stupid, but membership was disappointing, it was full of people who seemed to think that smart people should all run their own business and make loads of money and couldn't understand that there might be smart people who weren't interested in that.

I am academically bright but with poor social intelligence (aka nerd, geek etc.). My parents were both the same, as is one of my brothers and the other has ASD. I wouldn't say I was particularly academic as a child, I was too easily distracted and spent most of my childhood in a daydream, I left school with only a couple of GCSEs. Adulthood has been far easier for me, without the stress of fitting in with classmates I achieved far more and now have a PhD.

You shouldn't worry so much about your DC being smart or academic or whatever. They may be more interested in facts as they get older, but if you ram it down their throats all the time it is more likely to put them off learning than encourage them.

OP - if you want to help your kids achieve their potential, maybe think more about what makes them tick? What are they interested in? I was a bit taken aback that my DD wasn't a precocious reader, never really did get into books much as a kid - but on car journeys (no books possible!) she got into saying 'talk to me about something interesting'. DH was way better at this than me - he'd see something like a power line and start talking about power generation and distribution. Visiting a place like Rome, well obviously some history is unavoidable but we'd think about the structural engineering of the Parthenon.

Maybe your kids have a different set of abilities to you - maybe they are more like your DH's (though they could obviously be significantly different). So what does interest him? What's he good at?

Pantheon. Duh.

Are you generally very quiet OP? In the examples you gave I'm surprised there hadn't been many opportunities prior to notice your dcs attitudes to knowledge.
How old are they?

On holiday a few years back I had my books out giving them interesting facts. DD & DS were giggling, I asked what was funny, they said why do you have to be so boring.

I feel your pain! But stick with it; you will find in twenty years time that some of it has sunk in and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Be comforted by the fact that one of the better indicators for intelligence / exam results / etc is the level of maternal education.
It will come good in the end.

I joined when I was at school. Back then it was tricky if you didn't have a car as you could get to meets. (Country person). All you got were some magazines. The special interest groups I joined helped a lot in one area of my life, but overall I didn't feel it was worth the money.

I went back later and got on their website. It was shit. 10 years out of date technology wise. After several years of fussing they produce a new one which seemed 5 years out of date to start with. Might try again for networking porpoises.

I would say it's mostly nature, but it's what you do with it that counts. And whether you're just a nice person or not.

I would say that it is more nature than nurture. My children are academic as are DH and I. I suppose that we are more likely to visit museums, talk about science etc than some people but that is because we are all interested. One of my children reads a lot but the other one doesn't. I think it could be counterproductive to push them.

Might try again for networking porpoises.

I'd join for that!

Intelligence if children strongly correlates to intelligence of adults. Work habits are more learned, you really need a bit of both to do really well, rather than just a bit over average. My mum is a mensan with her yearly subscription. It's a club really, same as other social ones with subgroups for interests. I don't bother with it.
BUT not everyone's intelligence is academic. I'd rather my children were practical like their Dad (but with my work ethic). Life would be easier for them.

Hmm. Based on my wide experience, it's a bit of both with Nature leading a bit. Both me and my brother were nurtured. I'd say, we were 'tiger mum-ed'. I was very intelligent coasting at school, coasting while winning a scholarship at the No3 uni in England, coasted on my PhD and then I got a job and Boom! Had to work and struggle at the beginning but did well after that.
My brother was a certified genius, in my South European country he jumped 2 years ahead and was studying medicine in London days after his 17th birthday with scholarship. He's continue in academia and he's a scholar and doing ok in life financially.
My husband comes from a long line of Oxbridge grads but he was not the brightest of his family, in fact he was at the bottom. He's very creative and extremely financial successful in his career (including a small article in Financial Times) because he learnt from early on to knuckle down and work.
Our daughter is average but I'd follow my husband's lead and guide her to work hard because that's what matters in the end.
Also, not all need to be academics, they could be artistic, creative or even talented in something like gardening.
just let them explore.

I reckon nature in the main too, though obviously you can massively fuck up or enhance the initial genetic complement someone starts off with. I think the birth process probably has a role to play too. I have 3 children, all of whom are normal, bright kids (I was very academic, their father, not at all) but the eldest is noticeably less naturally able. He had a difficult birth and was oxygen starved for a relatively short period at delivery (shoulder dytocia). Although we never noticed any obvious after effects and he is perfectly happy and fine (and we are very grateful that he survived, had to be resucitated), primary school was a struggle and I do wonder if his difficult birth and lack of oxygen did have an affect.

My mother got me to sit the tests when I was at school as a way of trying to lever my school to stretch me academically.

It didn't work and I moved schools.

Even as a teenager I was wary of telling people I was a member - who needs a label to tell people they are bright unless they are very insecure? So I lapsed at about ages 16 and have never considered rejoining.

I don't think the reading thing sounds so bad, if it's just an adult trying to share an interest and doesn't push it. When I was a kid my dad would quiz me in the capital cities of different continents on long car journeys...sounds pushy but it wasn't - reading made me car sick and it kept me entertained. But when my lovely grandad would try and teach me piano I'd get bored and wander of after 5 mins but my brother would really enjoy it.

I think it's mainly inherited from the mother as well, plus as mums are usually the primary carer you tend to get the mother's 'nurture' more than the dad's at least in the early years.

At the end of the day you can't make kids intellectual if they're not going to be, but I would try to combat/keep an eye out for the anti-intellectualism if there is any because at the end of the day I don't think it's very kind (not saying your children would tease the 'clever kids' but some do)

My ex-husband and I are both of fairly high intelligence - not off the scale. Our son is talented at music and very clever - but maybe the top third of the class rather than at the very top. As and Bs at GCSEs. His music is his passion and he does incredibly well at that. But he is less interested in academic work and does averagely there.

But our daughter is top of everything and predicted all 9's (A*s) at GCSEs next year.

While she has natural ability - i believe it is her work ethic that sets her apart. She just has to do well in everything and makes sure that she does. She works really hard. But also loves it. She also does a lot of extra curricular activities.

the upshot is that nature has a lot to do with it, but a lack of interest or support can mean that opportunities are missed.

Both. Despite dyslexia, I'm a bookworm and love learning about things that interest me. My DS (2.5) loves to sit next to me both reading. (For the whole 2 mins he can sit still, looking at pictures in his book). We've always included a bedtime story in his routine since he was 6 months and he happily opens a book and makes up a story at various points in the day. A friend of mine never saw the point in reading to her LO so early on, despite being a big reader herself and as a result was shocked when she sees my DS 'reading' to her DD. Hoping the habit sticks as he gets older.

If their peers at school think learning is boring that will rub off on them.

That's the main issue for me. My DCs have been home educated for 2 years and it's only been since leaving school (due to bullying etc) that they have become passionate about learning and stopped saying it was boring or pointless. They are not particularly intelligent (DD definitely way below average for maths in particular, which was a bit of a shock for me as a maths nerd) but they are more engaged in their education than ever since the peer pressure of learning not being cool was taken away. They still notice the difference when they see their friends who still attend school

As for Mensa, I've been tempted for myself but only if it gives me access to more puzzles etc

I used to be believe it was more nature, now I believe it is almost all nurture.

Pushy parents produce high-flying children. I know a couple who are very wealthy but neither are very bright. They are dreadful social climbers whose DC went to good schools and had evening and weekend tutoring.

Both children are geniuses.

I occasionally have a pop at the free online IQ tests but have never been formally tested. I am a genius apparently, LOL!

My brother was formally tested as a child, and got similar results officially.

Always thought my husband was of average IQ, but he came up as "gifted". My kids all score between 125 and 139 but only on those free 10 question Facebook type ones which are aimed at adults.

I did not teach my children to read before starting school due to my own experiences (I was bored and unchallenged, and found being able to read when everyone else couldn't a social hindrance).

So, I'm plumping for nature over nurture. However, I do believe hard work will give the same results. If I'm honest, my IQ has made me lazy, I rarely put much effort into anything I do.

I don't believe IQ testing is any kind of measure of intelligence. It's like suggesting solving a crossword puzzle somehow makes you clever.

Intellectual stuff is a lot more work than rotating shapes!

(And I score very highly on IQ tests. It means nothing because it doesn't test any of the parts of me that are actually clever).

Think of it like a computer. You have the hardware (nature) and the software (nurture). You can put any amount of software on a computer but if the hardware is not there it will not run properly. But by the same token, hardware without adequate software will also not function well.

I believe it's both, but leaning towards nurture. I come from a w/c background and have an Oxbridge first. However, whilst I was always top of my class, my mum always got us to do some extra work in primary school, and then in secondary school made sure we had a homework routine. At Oxford, I coasted at first and was average, but worked exceptionally hard in my last year and got a very high first to the amazement of my tutors. Of course, I had some aptitude, but without dedication I wouldn't have achieved it.

Seeing my children, I see that practise and dedication makes much more difference than innate ability. However, in England there's a mentality that having to work at academic work is 'cheating', as though if you were really clever, you wouldn't have to work. That is really damaging imo.