to have my world order upset by Brexit debate?

[yolofish]

Two things I NEVER thought I would say or think:

Ken Clark was bloody marvellous in the debate - witty, entertaining, stuck to his own principles and called on MPs to vote with their own conscience rather than toe a party line. Normally can't stand a Tory Big Beast.

And then Nick Clegg came over all eloquent too, and I had vowed permanent hatred of him after the university fees fiasco.

It's a funny old world these days...

YANBU!

Also seeing Labour MPs I have respected voting for something they know will make their constituents poorer. Because, you know, "will of the people".

Presumably because you're a remainer?

Well, yes I am a remainer so I guess you could say they have confirmed my bias or summat. But Ken Clark and Nick Clegg, well blow me down with a fevver.

Agreed.

I liked it after the referendum when Ken Clark said that Theresa May does have experience in the City and Bank of England and she’s not one of the tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a glorious economic future outside the single market. Also liked Michael Heseltine's rant at Boris Johnson.

just wish i could look into a crystal ball and find out what is actually going to happen, then we would know more rather than the endless speculation and angst.

I still don't understand Brexit. I am still so cross. I still don't understand why the people that voted Leave did it; the ordinary people I mean, not the mega rich who are rubbing their hands at the opportunities for a low regulation, low pay economy. I'm not throwing out insults or claiming the Leavers are all rabid racists etc etc, I am genuinely still, 7 months later, baffled at what I can only see as an act of collective nihilism. Or spite.

And just.....wrong headedness. My own father is a Brexit voter regretter. "I didn't thing it would actually happen". I've genuinely lost respect for him; that someone I thought intelligent couldn't tell the difference between a protest vote in a general election and a binary vote has utterly stumped me. I believe he has actively voted to make his grand children's lives worse. And that colours everything.

None of which is actually relevant to your point OP, apologies . I've always thought Ken Clarke was marvellous though, as Tory grandees go.

My question - if each mp votes according to their constituency vote (and the only reliable referendum data is the location split) , does the bill pass?

And is that right? I have no idea.

Well done,Cameron...a hugely complex question made binary. Idiot.

I've genuinely lost respect for him ... I believe he has actively voted to make his grand children's lives worse. And that colours everything.

That's how I feel about my parents too.

I feel lucky, my PIL and DM all voted remain as did my family and close friends. I would find it very hard to find common ground with someone close (as opposed to acquaintances etc) who voted for leave.

I also thought Keir Starmer (Lab) was very impressive, altho he seemed to get quite a hard time.

Can someone explain though, the White Paper has not been published as yet - so MPs are being asked to vote to trigger Article 50 without any further details? is that right?

I wonder if anyone who voted leave has now changed their minds since Trump got elected? After all May has little choice but to throw her in ler lot with the USA in a race to bottom for the economy and society. Privatised NHS with American companies getting the contracts? Oh yes. Does the EU still seem so very bad?

maybe I'm being thick, but I dont get how MPs can vote yes or no to triggering A50 without the White Paper which is supposed to set out the framework of negotiations, I think, or at least the UK wish list. So they are being asked to make a decision without any information, just on the basis of the 52% vs the 48%? and if they vote yes to triggering A50 then that's it? It seems madness to me, no one would make a business decision based on "oh well it seems most people want it so we'll just go with it" would they?

Ken Clarke and Hesletine have both always been awesome on Europe. I particularly love KC every though I would never vote Tory.

I also feel that everything I hold dear politically is on the verge of being fucked up royally and am almost murderous towards my PIL who are almost gleeful about the uncertainty and upheaval.

And I despair at the state of the Labour Party because there's no credible, electable end in sight!

I'm with you, equally turned around. KC has always been sensible in Europe though. But it's always weird to be agreeing with him more than I am, you know, all of Labour. Who seriously need to get their shit together.

I also can't believe I'm thinking kindly of the Lib Dems again.

KC is awesome - we need more politicians of his ilk. I'm reading his biography at the moment, it's brilliant.

It's a shame nick clegg couldn't have shown the same backbone before he jumped into bed with the Tories and left us up shit creek without a paddle.

how would you really know how somebody voted though? i've spoken to people that have sworn blind to vote a particular way but listening to them at other times realise they lied to keep the peace with friends and family.
i'm not interested in how others voted and i certainly do not believe that close friends and family made the same choice as me, but that is their choice not mine. some people on this threads are a bit smug in their thoughts 'oh, my, blah blah did this ' did you actually see them mark their paper ?