Rented flat issue with tenants and their neighbours

[Tinkah]

Sorry if this is on the wrong place but I could do with the traffic and any advice is much appreciate. Sorry if this is long.

I let out a small flat I used to live in before o met DH. I let it out to a young couple through an agency. I have never met them but they had references checked before moving in etc. It's all through a reputable agency and they are on a fixed term tenancy.

The flat is one of five in a converted house. They are on the middle floor and there are two flats making up the ground floor. When I lived there one couple on the ground floor were very aggressive with me and complained a lot over minor issues eg. Someone else used the last of the bin space. I was a bit intimidated by this woman and her husband. The other neighbour is fine.

Anyway both neighbours have been complaining intermittently about my tenants- complaining loads! They email me the complaints. They say the tenants are very noisy, rude and aggressive of confronted and don't turn music down when asked. I live at the other side of the country so contact the management company and tell them. Then they ask the tenants to be more considerate. Usually the tenants deny making the noise.

The flat was inspected and was immaculate and well kept and the tenants always pay their rent so two weeks ago I renewed their tenancy for a year. Last night I got an angry email from the downstairs neighbour about noise again saying she's threatening legal action? Every time she makes a complaint I try to act on it but all advice I have is that she should complain to environmental health if its bad but apparently you need three properties to complain to do that? There is a flat next to the one the tenants are on and they have never raised an issue.

Both downstairs flats seem at the need of their tether and are threatening legal action (I have no idea what) and saying they are going to move its that bad. They have today asked me not to renew the tenancy not knowing I did so last week. I feel a bit guilty but I don't know how bad it actually is. I asked them to record it on their phone and they said it wasn't loud enough!

What can I do to calm this situation? Can the neighbours take legal action? The management company said "that's living in flats!" And say the only quiet hours are between 11pm and 7am. Please help!

Have a similar issue. As I understand it there is no legal action that can be taken against LL or management company, only against tenant, and for that neighbours would have to produce evidence of complaints to council, police , noise abatement etc, I feel great sympathy for my neighbours but I also think they exaggerate the problems out of prejudice. Still am trying to move over to a more professional couple for next letting. If my neighbours want to get the current tenants evicted, I have no problem with that.

The management company are right aren't they? I don't understand what you mean about three properties, anyone can complain to environmental health.

If the noise isn't loud enough to be captured on a mobile phone, are these even legitimate noise complaints?

As a young family, we lived in a flat....we are and were considerate tenants but the elderly woman below us took against us. Basically she could sometimes hear our child walking across the floor and so she used to wait for us and attack us verbally.

Then the other neighbour opposite...also an older person....he decided to join her in her campaign and he waited for us to say rude things about us.

It was AWFUL!

We had to have mediation....I was so stressed. I just want to let you know that sometimes, people make complaints when they're not justified.

We made every effort to ensure our child didn't run around or shout and bang but the slightest noise had her screaming and banging a broom on the ceiling!

The neigbours can't take legal action unless they have proof of abusive behaviour.

So if it only downstairs people
And not next door could it be the sounds of footsteps, is there carpet or wood flooring?

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/housing/problems-where-you-live/neighbour-disputes/

You could contact the Environmental Health department yourself. If two sets of neighbours are complaining then maybe there is noise. Tell the neighbours and the letting agency that that is what you are doing. Find out when the noise is particularly bad and ask EH to monitor it. If they feel it is a problem they can deal with it. If they do not judge it to be problematic then the neighbours will have to put up with it.

Maybe reconsider the flooring that you have. Is it properly insulated? It can be hell living underneath someone.

Thanks for replying- your issue sounds almost identical. I too believe my neighbours may exaggerate the issue out of prejudice.

The neighbours ring me with long winded complaints- not too dissimilar to complaints they used to make about me which were wildly over exaggerated and they were always threatening legal action eg. My washing machine broke and flooded the flat and some water (a tiny amount) leaked down to her flat. I paid for all damage and obviously immediately offered. So I know she can be a bit hysterical.

The flat is carpeted except for the kitchen and bathroom. It's very difficult to know how bad the noise is but even if it is bad as a LL what else can I do? If the neighbours say the noise isn't enough to be captured by a recording and won't report it to environmental health why are they complaining to me on a very regular basis?

Tough one but to be honest I think all you can do is say that you have expressed their concerns to both the management agency and the tenant. I'd probably just call their bluff and tell them if they wish to commenced legal proceedings then that is their prerogative.

If you have renewed the tenancy and it has been signed, you are now stuffed regarding eviction unless you can prove a breach. The neighbours can sue all they want, there is nothing you can do.
Two lots of neighbours complaining sounds like there is a real problem, but it is too late.

I would speak kindly to your tenants...do they have kids? Tell them that you're trying to appease the neighbours so you've offered to go and sit in their flat to listen to the noise to see how bad it is.

Then, if it IS bad, perhaps you will need to think about getting something else down on the floor. If the carpet is thin, it won't make much difference.

Special OP might not WANT to evict the tenants. She said they have kept her flat in an immaculate condition and are good tenants.

I'd just keep passing them the details of the local noise control department. You can't really do any more than that, can you?

Oh and Special two lots of neighbours complaining means nothing. As I experienced, sometimes people who are vicious can join forces and complain about the slightest thing maliciously.

Living in flats there needs to be a LOT of give and take. People piss one another off regularly....it's all about polite communication and both parties making an effort.

I rented my house out when I moved.

I kept getting phone calls from next door because my tenants were making too much noise.... shutting the front door (terrace house) on their way out to work in the morning! Like, how about jog on mate.

The neighbours would like you to get more considerate tenants - why did you renew the tenancy if there had been complaints from more than one neighbour? It doesn't matter who pays the mortgage, but peace and quiet matters to the neighbours because they live there.

I can't think of any irritating neighbour noise that would be capturable on a mobile phone - you can't record overhead noises that way.

User OP doesn't have to take the complainants word for it you know. Why assume they're "in the right" look at my experience. We couldn't sneeze without someone moaning at us.

It's hard when you're on the second floor.

The management company said "that's living in flats!" And say the only quiet hours are between 11pm and 7am

Best way to handle this? Forget personality clashes for a moment and empathise.
If this was happening to you, would you prefer to work with the landlord or Env.Hth?
To them it looks like you're washing your hands of this and just passing them from pillar to post.
If this doesn't get sorted then you could end up being sued/lose tenants - and you're not guaranteed to get equally good ones next time.
If the neighbours move you could end up with worse people than them.

Are these people all home at the same times?
I would imagine some are at work all day and others at home?

From my experience, a lot of agencies don't care about problems if the landlord doesn't, so long as they receive their commission.
What 'investigation' did they actually do bar the cursory inspection?
They should be offering mediation to get this resolved....but only after they've sat in and listened to the 'noise' for themselves.

I've lived in a flat where the carpet was 'average', but the floorboards were ancient and worn in one part of the living room. Every step you took made them creak something awful.
Landlord took cheaper option of adding thick underlay to the carpet (had to shave a bit from under the door to accommodate). That helped massively.
....What also helped was the neighbour being told to change their loose light fitting - funny how the ceiling doesn't 'make the whole room shake' once things are screwed in properly

Re bins - are they recycling their paper/plastic/food etc? If not then they need to get those bins from the council. I live in a tenement building and we share all our bins. Since we got the recycling bins there's always space in the 'main' bin - well up until a day before collection!

I would suggest you either task the agency with this or make time to go down and meet them all in person.
If you fob them off then then you may well get bitten by it one day.

Block them on email.

Generally I feel that landlords need to be held far more responsible for their tenant's behaviour (and be given the right to terminate contracts if there is anti social behaviour involved), but the history plus the fact that the noise is not loud enough to record or bad enough for the neighbours to be bothered with the hassle of EH suggests your best bet is to stop having contact with them.

Other User - and we've had a variety of people upstairs and have only complained about one set of neighbours so far, as did other neighbours, but owner let the arsehole ones stay on for ages. It wasn't us, it was them.

It really doesn't matter who pays the mortgage. Owners could simply ask other residents if everything is ok before renewing a tenancy.

Can you find out the email address for local environmental health department? Ping the complaining email straight back with a link to the environmental health. Explain simply that this is a dispute between neighbours and you are powerless to act legally. And if they, as neighbours, have issue then they must sort it out through proper channels.

Ping it back every time with the link and the same message. Don't get drawn into negotiations or discussion.

Can you ask the neighbours to keep a noise diary? That's what environmental health/council noise abatement services would usually ask them to do anyway in the first instance.

It should help with a few things:

• give you some idea of what's going on, and if it does sound like unreasonable noise levels or unreasonable neighbour expectations. Is it "3.14am, woken by loud music" or "3.14pm, neighbour walked across floor in thumpy shoes"?

• identify if there are any specific issues which might be fixable on your/their end - e.g. if it's "loud toddler with shoes on running around on laminate flooring sounds like herd of rhino" (example from some neighbours I had)

• cover you if tenants end up complaining to you about any of this

• let neighbours know that you take this seriously, but you are still going to follow proper procedures and not just kick out tenants on their say-so

If they refuse to do it, along with not engaging with environmental health and not being able to record any of this offending noise, then that tells you a lot in itself.

Also worth looking in to whether your council does a neighbour mediation service - some offer it free.

I have asked them to keep a noise diary and the management company offered mediation. The neighbours said they would consider it but didn't see the point as it sounded "like relationship counselling" and I said to them I don't know what else to suggest.

I have no legal powers to do anything except keep speaking to the tenants which I am doing through the management agency.

The tenants have not done anything illegal.

If the neighbours won't report to EH but instead complain to me I don't know what to do. Is it true if you report to EH you have to declare this when trying to sell your property and it makes it harder?

I had this. Was sympathetic at first but my tenants denied it and in the end I just told them to report to council.

You don't contact the bank if someone has a problem with a neighbour who has a mortgage.

So when you lived there the neighbour complained about you. Now that someone else lives there they complain about them. Maybe the neighbour shouldn't live in a flat.

user - no need for the ageism.

And how old is elderly???? 50? 60? 90? and what difference does it make?

Some good advice here.