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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder what the point of lanes is if someone can crash into you anyway

221 replies

RebeccaWithTheGoodHair · 13/12/2016 11:29

Back in the spring I was in a car accident. It was at a roundabout on an A road dual carriageway.

I was in the right hand lane going over the roundabout to exit in the right hand lane straight ahead. A car was beside me in the left hand lane and should have been going either left or straight ahead into the left hand lane of the dual carriageway. They didn't. They turned right and crashed into the side of me.

My insurers agree that I was correct in a) my driving and b) that is was his fault. But apparently there is a legal precedent where a judge decided that the person in the same situation as me should have been aware of the other car and thus was equally to blame for the accident, this means my insurer will only go for 50/50 in my case.

This has really pissed me off as wtf is the actual point of lanes if a driver can just make a decision to turn right at any point. And I was aware of the fucker, just under the impression he would stick to the rules of the road and not crash into the side of me. Shouldn't he have been aware of me??!!

And to add insult to injury this happened back in May and the other driver still hasn't given his insurers any details of what happened so it hasn't been resolved either way. My insurers seem powerless to hurry it along and won't even tell me how long it could go on for.

AIBU to think it was entirely his fault AND that there must be some time limit on how long he has to make any statement to his own insurers so it can be finally resolved.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
SeriousSteve · 14/12/2016 11:51

It's been said it's totally fine to enter at 6 and leave at 3 all from the LH lane. It's really, really not!

Jaynesworld · 14/12/2016 11:53

HaveNoSocks there were two lanes on the exit not one

HaveNoSocks · 14/12/2016 11:54

Oh Really? No you're right that's totally not fine, I assumed people that did that knew they were being dicks and just didn't care.

HaveNoSocks · 14/12/2016 11:55

Jaynesworld right but since someone might be in the LH lane going straight on (or some idiot going round too far in the LH lane) even though you have the right to leave the roundabout in the RH lane you still have to check that there's no one in the LH lane of the roundabout that you might collide with as you leave iyswim.

SeriousSteve · 14/12/2016 11:56

If from a dual carriageway at 6 you are exiting into a dual carriageway at 12, the car in the LH lane takes the LH exit. The car in the RH lane takes the RH exit. In the OPs scenario, and by the location of damage, the car in the LH lane has exited into the RH lane cutting across a lane.

The OP in no way is at fault here.

Jaynesworld · 14/12/2016 11:58

HaveNoSocks yeah I see what you mean

HaveNoSocks · 14/12/2016 11:58

Thanks SeriousSteve I thought she collided as she came off the roundabout because she didn't check if someone was staying on the roundabout in that case it does sound 100% unambiguously not her fault.

PossumInAPearTree · 14/12/2016 12:10

There was a similar argument with a dash cam video on a local fb group recently.

In this case it was dual carriageway in all exits. Car in left lane and car in right lane entering at six o'clock. Left hand car going straight in and the car in the right lane turned left at nine o'clock!

Loads of people were saying this was fine because the nine o'clock exit was a dual carriageway so you could turn left in either lane. People were saying if you were going straight on you should be in the right hand lane only. I told several people they should stop driving. I was late going to bed that night because so many people were wrong on the internet!

akkakk · 14/12/2016 12:19

BobbyNoggle

You are right, 50:50 doesn't make sense...
However insurance companies are quite binary, their thinking will generally be:

  • person A's fault 100:0
  • person B's fault 0:100
  • some fault on both sides 50:50
it costs them too much to work out precise details - they just want to work out a rough responsibility...

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So what you're saying is you've should never, ever drive next to another vehicle not quite that Verbena37, but yes it is a more hazardous situation and yes you are partly responsible for what happens in a more confined space - by being next to another vehicle you have reduced their options so even if they make an unexpected move, by being there you have changed the dynamic so may shoulder some of the responsibility...

The reality is that driving is hazardous, and the dynamics of the hazards are continually changing - the issue we have is too many drivers cocooned in their comfy space unaware of what else is going on...

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I think that we should be clear - there is absolutely nothing wrong in being in the right lane and going straight on - the OP was not at fault by making that decision, it is a valid use of the roundabout and to be encouraged to help traffic flow... the issue was in assuming that the other car was also going straight on... not the lane choice per se.

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I think it would be easier to argue they were fully liable if front of other car hits rear or side of yours Not necessarily - the scenario could be other car drove into the side of OP - equally it could be OP cut up other car - the same situation can be described in two very different ways... Insurance company claims handlers are not police or lawyers - if there is a possibility that either could have contributed to the accident then their cheapest option is to settle it 50:50 and not argue it

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wasonthelist - that diagram may or may not be indicative of the OP's actual line marking - as linked above if you look at the A419 / A420 roundabout in Wiltshire the marking is different and both lanes will go right and both lanes will go straight on - you just can not assume one approach to roundabouts and therefore must drive based on what people are actually doing, not what you think they should be doing.

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PossumInAPearTree The highway code does not back up the OP - as I quoted above, the section on lane use has no mention of must / must not or do / do not which are the instructional words - yet the next section says to In all cases watch out... which was not complied with and in fact arguably the OP failed on two bits in that clause (187), the other car only with one bit...

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pklme Sounds as though you had the misfortune to come across a rather poor driver... I think all you can do is ensure that when attention is taken away from ahead of you to check right, you are not near any other car - the normal advice would be to look at moving out earlier than you think you need to - so if you are approaching a car directly ahead and there is also one to the left (even though it may have no need to move out) don't aim to move out next to that left car - move earlier so that while your attention is off them if they move they won't hit you... It is rather like a 3D chess puzzle, or one of those mazes with a ball bearing - you need to plot a route through and allow for lots of poor drivers at the same time!

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wasonthelist's roundabout is exactly the scenario / As per wasonthelist's picture there is no way you can leave at 12 o'clock without crossing the lane that continues to 3 o'clock - but you can't exit a roundabout at 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock without doing that.
Still difficult to know without seeing a google earth view of the roundabout, but if is is the same as the picture above then it is reasonable for the OP to assume that the other car was going straight on - however that is still an assumption, you can't say 'the other car can only go straight on'their moving right to exit at 3 is still legal, and it is still the OP's responsibility to not colide as much as the other driver's responsibility...

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xarpax your husband is wrong Grin it is perfectly legal and acceptable to do what the OP did in terms of lane choice.

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If from a dual carriageway at 6 you are exiting into a dual carriageway at 12, the car in the LH lane takes the LH exit. The car in the RH lane takes the RH exit. In the OPs scenario, and by the location of damage, the car in the LH lane has exited into the RH lane cutting across a lane.
Correct if both are exiting at 12 - incorrect if one decides to stay on the roundabout...

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Ultimately this comes down to:

  • OP didn't actively do something wrong
  • OP didn't actively do everything right
therefore insurance may well be 50:50

there are some very entrenched and worrying beliefs on this thread suggesting that things should be black and white and therefore it is the other driver's fault - sadly driving and the law and highway code are not that simple - yes some things are black and white (e.g. speed limit = xx), but the majority of our driving laws are advisory and guidance based and the default position is that you must drive according to the context and that includes other drivers and some of them may idiots, but the other driver being an idiot is not of itself a defence Grin

HaveNoSocks · 14/12/2016 12:25

akkakk is it ever acceptable to leave a roundabout in the left hand lane to go into the right hand lane of a dual carriageway? If you do this surely it's your responsibility to make sure no car is already in the RH lane?

Garion · 14/12/2016 12:29

Correct if both are exiting at 12 - incorrect if one decides to stay on the roundabout...

Road flow dictates cars cascade off a roundabout in accordance to lane choice. In this situation, as I said, the moron cut across into OPs lane. He is unequivocally at fault, also noted by location of damage.

Let me ask a question. If a police car had been behind said incident - what would have happened?

I'd love you to try your viewpoint over at Pepipoo. I really, really would. Xmas Grin

pklme · 14/12/2016 12:38

It's absolutely clear that none of us should be allowed on the road, as we all have very different ideas of what is going on in the heads of the other drivers, all of whom are bellends, none of whom are telepathic, all of who think the rest of us are and the sooner we get driverless cars the better...

GrinGrinGrin

Jaynesworld · 14/12/2016 13:01

akkakk rule 187 of the Highway Code also does not use the words do not, must not etc so by your argument its advisory not compulsory so the op has done nothing wrong by not knowing the idiot other driver was in the wrong lane.

FlowLikeAHarpoon · 14/12/2016 13:07

Can I ask a question about that diagram? New driver, still wrestling with all the vagaries of roundabouts...

Imagine the blue car had come onto the left lane at 9pm (rather than the 6pm as shown), intending to exit at their 'straight ahead' (which is 3pm). Bluey would surely be in the way when the red car exited at 12pm, causing a collision just as in the OP?

This is assuming that the blue car had properly looked before joining, preparing to give way, but seen that the left hand lane was empty. Red car was there in the right hand lane, but had not at this point put on their indicator to exit at 12pm.

Should Bluey have waited until both lanes were empty before joining?

wasonthelist · 14/12/2016 13:14

Flow - I would wait for both lanes to be clear - IMHO, joining when the lane nearest is empty, but next one isn't is risky at best

SeriousSteve · 14/12/2016 13:16

Would also wait for both lanes to be clear.

Jaynesworld · 14/12/2016 13:35

FlowLikeAHarpoon I would wait untill both lanes were clear

Oysterbabe · 14/12/2016 13:41

I haven't rttt so apologies if this has been said but the case is Grace vs Tanner and it's a binding precedent unfortunately.

IveAlreadyPaid · 14/12/2016 13:42

Following on from harpoon's question. If you were at 9 and planning to take first exit onto dual carriageway at 12 and there was a car in rh lane on roundabout so either taking exit at 3 or going onto rh lane at 12. Should you go presuming the car will stay in their lane, or wait in case car takes lh lane at 12?

HermioneWoozle · 14/12/2016 13:49

I don't see how the OP could have prevented the accident except if she had time to slow down and let the car in, but it sounded like she was in the right lane with nowhere to go and the other car hit her side on. Sometimes there is no time to react, anticipate or avoid the other car if you've got an idiot who hasn't used their mirrors at all next to you.

wasonthelist · 14/12/2016 13:56

IveAlreadyPaid

I would still wait until both lanes were clear - unless the roundabout was so big and the other vehicle so far away, I could pull out and be away from the approaching vehicle at their speed or more in plenty of time so that even if they changed lanes, they wouldn't be affected - which in my experience would be highly unusual.

SeriousSteve · 14/12/2016 13:56

Oysterbabe

Yet despite this ruling, do you not agree the act is without doubt "driving without due care and attention"?

It's bizarre I could go out now, drive like an absolute twat on every roundabout safe in the knowledge there's a binding precedent meaning, at worst, I'm only 50% liable for any accidents that result from my twattishness!

wasonthelist · 14/12/2016 13:59

I agree with HermioneWoozle and although the circumstances are similar, this isn't the same as Grace vs Tanner as the "who hit whom" was reversed.

wasonthelist · 14/12/2016 14:00

Totally agree SeriousSteve it's ludicrous, although not untypical of our learned friends, sadly.

akkakk · 14/12/2016 14:18

HaveNoSocks
is it ever acceptable to leave a roundabout in the left hand lane to go into the right hand lane of a dual carriageway?

yup Grin - maybe not wise / sensible / clever / the best choice - but it is acceptable in the sense of the move being legal in itself... if you want to come onto a roundabout in the right of three lanes and exit first left that is legal unless otherwise restricted might not be clever though :) If you crash your way through 6 cars doing it - the lane usage won't be the driver for the prosecution - it might be evidence towards driving dangerously, but not necessarily directly wrong in itself...

think about your question - now put a broken-down car in the left lane of the exit - it is obvious that you might exit the roundabout from the left lane into the right lane of the exit, otherwise you will simply drive up the backside of the broken down car Grin - so if you can find a scenario where it is legal and logical then it is probably always legal, but not necessarily always logical!

In other scenarios e.g. motorway accident and tailbacks - reversing up the hardshoulder / slipway still remains illegal so there is no legal scenario...

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Garion
no driver owns a lane / no driver has absolute rights over a lane / all drivers should watch out for others...
If there was a policeman there I suspect they would have asked them to clear the roundabout / swept up the mess / told them to contact the insurance companies - they would have no interest beyond that - this wasn't dangerous driving, it was two drivers making a set of clashing assumptions - the police record fact, they don't prosecute or sort out insurance claims (CPS / insurance companies do that). As for Pepipoo, Grin there are some interesting people on there and an awful lot of hot air - all I have done here is keep drawing the conversation back to fact and the law / HC - if you think that the law says something different then you need to say so... as mentioned beneath your post there is case law to demonstrate responsibility for both... and the HC and law and everything else backs it up... Pepipoo members talk as much tosh as they do helpful stuff...

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the sooner we get driverless cars the better... can't wait - they will be programmed to default to safety, so if there is a queue ahead, just aim at them, they will all move out of the way to avoid the accident Grin should be lots of fun, like real-life dodgems!

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Jaynesworld
Correct, 187 is as relaxed as 186 - hence my point, if 186 had used those stronger words it would have supported the OP - as neither does, both apply equally... therefore the OP should have given weight equally to:

  • lane usage
  • watching out for idiots (paraphrase of 187)
sadly the OP only did one, not both hence the accident is not 100% OP, but a shared responsibility.

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FlowLikeAHarpoon
I partially answer your question above - on a small roundabout a blue car coming in at 9 should wait for the red car to be clear of the roundabout, or judge speed so that by the time the blue car gets to the conflict zone the red car is gone... However on a bigger roundabout it is not unknown for someone to join at 9 with the road clear, but move slowly and a faster car to come on at 6 or even 3 and want to exit at 12 and have that conflict - in that scenario, the faster (red) car should give way - this is a very good illustration of why there isn't the black and white situation so many people think there is - the simple answer is it depends... the simple solution is be cautious and if necessary give way...

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Oysterbabe
I had forgotten that case - if you read it - pretty much as above - two vehicles both making assumptions = 50:50

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IveAlreadyPaid
Go, with an assumption, but cautious and prepared to pause if your assumption is wrong. There is nothing wrong with assumptions - we have to make them all the time as drivers and generally they will be right 90% of the time, the good driver though has a back up plan!

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It's bizarre I could go out now, drive like an absolute twat on every roundabout safe in the knowledge there's a binding precedent meaning, at worst, I'm only 50% liable for any accidents that result from my twattishness!
not totally Grin but yes partially you can - we have a law which allows people to be human and not perfect, and personally I would prefer that over a strident law which itself makes assumptions and restricts what you can do... The same law that means that the OP should have been more cautious / not made assumptions is the same law that allows her the flexibility to use the lanes on the roundabout to maximise her speed of journey, that allows each of us to make mistakes and not have our licences removed etc. It is possible that you are a perfect driver, I don't know but I have decades of experience of the advanced driving world, numerous qualifications and licences and tests passed - and the more I do, the more it teaches me caution and an understanding of how little I know - the irony is that the people who are the most cocky and certain on the road tend to be the least self-aware / capable, yet confident to the last in proclaiming their 'truth' on forums, ignore the negative aspects of their own driving... just go onto youtube and look at all the road warriors who put up dashcam footage of 'other idiots' only to be hoisted on their own petard as they demonstrate their own bad driving - it is hilarious Grin

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anyhow, enough on this thread - the OP was undoubtedly driving well, sadly made a wrong assumption and there was an accident - the insurance could go any which way, who knows, but there would be validity in it being 50:50 and thanks to OysterBabe for reminding of case law on this. Hopefully if nothing else it opens eyes to the fact that we have to be careful as drivers to not make assumptions - and lastly alwasy assume that every other driver is an idiot - most of the time that is an accurate assumption Grin

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