AIBU to suggest that schools cannot win?

[Piglet208]

It seems that whatever schools do it will upset a large group of (very vocal) parents. If they host productions during the day they are criticised by working parents. They host in the evening and they are criticised by parents with tired children. They organise trips which annoy parents due to the cost or they don't organise trips and are thought not to care or be lazy. They give out too little or too much homework...never just the right amount. They push the children too hard or they don't do enough. Has it always been like this or are parents more invested in school life now? I don't remember my parents having such strong opinions. I also don't think society judges and scrutinises other professions in quite the same way. AIBU?

And inconsistency can make it really difficult for those staff members who are trying to be consistent. And new teachers, who are trying to be consistent and might struggle with behaviour. No classroom is an island...

Elanrode: Yup. If there is no homework in books (evidence for Ofsted) I am under scrutiny for not chasing up homework. If there are no sanctions set for homework not done, I am under scrutiny for not following school policies. Not even 'bonkers' as far as most state schools go - this is a basic expectation.

Well, I'm glad I've ignored basic expectations for such a long time then

Boundaries: Absolutely. Every time I send my students the message that homework doesn't matter and they will get away with not doing it for me, I undermine my colleagues and their efforts. Results are poor outcomes, which again parents have a tendency to complain about!

My sympathies tend to lay with the teachers in the face of a crisis of apathetic parenting.

Well, I politely disagree. I think the students work out some teachers care about homework and some aren't really bothered. Mrs Elan doesn't care but Mr Smith does, so they complete it for Mr Smith.

But I don't think it's possible for us (and I fully accept in your case Trifle it's a school policy you feel would lead to capability if you ignored) to insist that huge time consuming jobs are non negotiable and then complain about the workload.

Elanrode: Whereas in my experience, they learn they don't have to do it for Mr. Smith (because he accepts notes from Mum about boxing or Christmas markets) and they try it with Mrs Trifle. And when Mrs Trifle says "Sorry, you are no different to anyone else and now you have a detention", they get Mum to complain because Mr. Smith never gives detention (despite it being school policy) and Mrs Trifle spends 10 minutes on the phone explaining that homework isn't optional. A lot of time is wasted in this way.

Elan

You sound like you are the teacher that the pupils are on about when the they say

X lets us listen to music
X doesn't give detentions
X doesn't mind if we don't do homework
X never marks me in late

Definitely part of the problem.

Well, I'm sorry you have had to go through that but it still begs the question why as a profession we insist on such time consuming activities with scarce educational benefit.

In the case above the child didn't choose to go to the market. He was taken by his parents. So I would be punishing a child for a choice his parents made.

I give detentions, but not for missed homework.

No music. They have crap tastes :) and they can't concentrate.

But the thread has turned into a homework thing. I'm opposed to homework on principle. I set it, but I won't waste time chasing it if students haven't done it. That's it, really. Partly because I've better things to do but mainly because sometimes there is a good reason why they haven't done it and be unable to disclose.

I've had young carers, students with demanding part time jobs, students with ongoing custody battles and living with mum part the week then dad the other part, children with traumatic home lives where for all I know there was nowhere safe to do homework, and children with a real talent in sport or dance who dedicate many hours to it outside of school.

I believe in fairness and consistency where possible but sometimes it isn't possible. Besides, I consistently don't chase homework

But if you feel it has value by all means, do so. It's just then if you find your weekend tied up with homework then it's difficult to argue a way to actually have a decent work life balance.

Presumably you don't set homework one day to be handed in the next? If not, then the Xmas Market will be one in a long line of "excuses" why the work wasn't done. Monday was football, Tuesday I had to visit Grandma, Wednesday is Cubs, Thursday I went to football, Friday I was too tired!!
In Primary you MIGHT get away with Mum saying you didn't have the time, in Secondary you would be straight in detention, Mum or not!
I can complain as much as I like about having to set/chase up/mark and provide feedback on homework but if it's school policy, then I have to follow it!

I'm a teacher and head of year. I love my job and I'm freaking awesome at it. I spend a lot of time trying to get every aspect of my job right because it is important. Those kids in my care matter and I care about them far more than is healthy (hence me going on mat leave at 39 weeks to ensure I dont disadvantage my yr 11s with a change of teacher at the wrong time) I have colleagues who are amazing and colleagues who give teachers a bad name. I have dealings with parents that are very positive and dealings with parents who make me feel like I can't win matter what I do. (Today's parent was going to report me to the police because her 14yo son has had 2 expensive coats 'stolen' this term and is therefore victim of bullying. The kid insisted he'd been to lost property and the coats were definitely stolen. I found them in the lost property office within two minutes. Mum then berated me for not knowing the coats were lost and returning them sooner.) I've also been told on a regular basis that by parents that they hope their child wants to be 'more than just a teacher'. I honestly find it hard to care about the outside opinions regarding my job. I know I work hard, I don't need to justify it because I get the perk of 13 weeks holiday per year. Just as people with high powered careers in industry rarely feel the need to justify their company cars. Just because a person has been to school doesn't mean they know how I should do much job. So when people start teacher bashing I let it wash over me. My performance does the talking for me. I think we could all benefit from being more supportive of each other and instead challenge the government because they are the biggest threat to our kids education. They are playing a game and our kids deserve better.

Elan why do you set the homework then?

School policy is we set one homework a week. It doesn't specify written homework, though, so I often set a reading or research based one :)

I love my DS, but for the entire twelve years of his life I've tried my best to remember that he's special to ME, not the world. As in, much as I might wish exceptions would and could be made for him, in a classroom environment he's one of 20-30, and not the special boy he is at home.

I guess that makes me sound like a heartless mother, but to my mind, I'm setting my son up for a lifetime of being special to his family, but equal to everyone else in the real world. I don't want my son to grow up thinking he's the exception to every rule, because I spent his childhood making ridiculous excuses for him to that he didn't have to be treated like everyone else. There are rules, and all the other children have to follow them, so why shouldn't my son? I do love him, and that's why I take this stance. Because I don't want a son who goes from "My mother will get me out of [following this rule]" to "My mother will bail me out of jail".

I make him do his homework (provided the homework is honestly within his capabilities). I make him adhere to the dress code, I don't defend him against consequences that he deserves, and I do my best to back the teacher up. My sister's a teacher, and I'm hoping to retrain as a teacher myself at some point (likely when my twins are at least preschool age, so it's a while down the track), so even though I'm a mother, I have to say I agree with Trifle.

I'm a TA working with children between 9-13. Most of the children are absolutely lovely, as are their parents. However, there is a small cohort of bloody horrendous children who are truly vile to everyone around them, including their teachers.

I've been quite shocked at some of the behaviour. Sometimes, (not always), when you meet their parents, it's easy to say where that behaviour comes from. At last parents evening, a particularly charming lady greeted her daughter's English teacher with the gem: 'So you're the cunt who gives my daughter all that shit homework to do'.

I'll admit that before I worked in a school I could be critical, but now you couldn't pay me enough money to be a teacher.

So you adhere to the policy far enough to set it?

Why?

At last parents evening, a particularly charming lady greeted her daughter's English teacher with the gem: 'So you're the cunt who gives my daughter all that shit homework to do'.

This is the point where Mrs Trifle gives a polite but tight smile, stands up and explains to the parent that she needs to leave or Mrs Trifle will be calling the police to report her abusive language

Unbelievable.

Because some children choose to do it.

I've no issue with it if they want to do it :) but in terms of time, I don't dedicate hours to chasing up homework that isn't done.

I must have had nice parents. I've only ever had one difficult one and she wasn't in "cunt" region.

I agree with every word you've posted Elanrode, especially your first post. I don't know the ins and outs of homework and why it's set - not being a teacher but as a parent I sure wish we didn't have to bother. My child gives her all to school when she's actually at it, she resents and resists homework though and it makes life very hard for us at home.

I've met some fantastic teachers whose shoulders I have cried on as they helped me get my child through his autism diagnosis and I have met some utter horrors who were cruel, angry and resistant to anything that might help my child reach his potential - they preferred to dismiss him as naughty and manipulative. Its probably equal on both sides. I do think though that on MN certainly teachers seem to seen as above reproach and quite often the the threads where they're being criticised are not particularly harsh but reacted to as though they're very attacking and unwarranted.

I utterly despise the MN party line of "all small children lie or exaggerate" and essentially are sly and trying to get out of trouble. There's a thread running currently about the ritual humiliation of public showering back in the day, I imagine their parents thought they were exaggerating when they complained about that too.

I do think that if you're a good teacher, you might find it hard to comprehend just how much effect your rotten colleagues might have. I remember describing to a friend who'd been teaching for ten years what my son was going through at school and his mind was blown, he said "i don't know what to say I can't even tell you which route to go down as I have simply never come across anything like this before".

So in summary when teachers are fab they're life changing, when they're not they wield power that can cause huge distress to families and I am uncomfortable with the idea that they're all angelic and above reproach which is, in my opinion, the general
Party line here on MN.

I think that people might be surprised at how much ignorance (I don't mean that insultingly but just literally) there is about special needs.

I am having issues at the moment with a member of staff being really very inappropriate towards a girl who has autism. I'm hearing a lot of "well, out there she won't have XYZ."

Maybe, but in here, she does, because that's the law as well as being the decent thing to do!

"utterly despise the MN party line of "all small children lie or exaggerate" and essentially are sly and trying to get out of trouble."

I don't think that is the party line.

What I think a lot of mumsnetters, especially those with older children, do is caution people from going into school, all guns blazing, on the say so of a child who might very well have misheard, or misunderstood. Ask questions, get the full story then come down like a ton of bricks, if necessary. This is often interpreted as saying that children are liars, or manipulative or something. It isn't. It's saying that children can get things wrong. We all accept that we can't take "everyone else has got an IPhone" on face value, and the child may very well genuinely feel that everyone else has. I would equally want to investigate "Mrs Smith is picking on me" before I went to the head to make a formal complaint.

I think every time a parent has contacted the school (and I could have been lucky) they haven't wanted to make a complaint, they have wanted reassurance about something.

However I have my difficult parent this year and I teach all her children! Joy!

I agree about lack of knowledge towards special needs. I have been astounded by it. It's very difficult especially at the beginning when you, the parent is pretty clueless too, you think the "professionals" will know and be able to guide YOU. This just isn't the case and in fact, in my experience I have had teachers actually questioning the diagnosis of a multi disciplinary team over their own class room experience of my child. With just a few basic questions I was able to ascertain they knew very little about autism, were in fact hugely resistant to considering it when "naughtiness" would do, yet were in a position to be able to help so much. My son went to four different primaries and this was my experience at each of them.

I utterly despise the MN party line of "all small children lie or exaggerate" and essentially are sly and trying to get out of trouble. As I said much earlier, and Bertrand has reiterated, it isn't that the child is necassarily lying:

Younger kids are, by their very nature, still growing a wider awareness. This means they often interpret things very narrowly, leaving their version of a happening without a wider context.

Many people, let alone kids, lie of they think it will stop them getting into more trouble. How many times does your day get in the way of a small chore, so you make a judgement call - like the "Yes, I checked lost property, my coats are not in it"

But it suits some MNers to despise, to be furios with others they see as having called all children manipulative liars.

MsG I couldn't agree more. My DM worked in a 'special school' in the 70s and 80s. The kids ranged from those with Downs Syndrome to those with a wide range of SENs, most of which didn't have names then. There were classrooms that catered for them all and staff like my DM (a special needs nursery nurse) for all ages and abilities - 5 - 16 years old.

At some time in the late 80s it became unfashinable to provide these schools. The public line was that it was segregation. So many of thise children were thrown to the wolves given care packages and sent to mainstream schools. Where teachers already oveloaded with class numbers and new This, That and The Other Things, were expected to become SEN expersts overnight and people like my mum could have become TAs - had they retrained and thrown away all they had been doing for decades.

Oddly The System has not changed much since. There is little a classroom teacher can do to become more knowledgeable in all aspects of SEN. They rely on SENCOs to tell them who needs what. Sadly The Goviot and his later chums never did see fit to fund this much!

So the teachers who want to do something can't access any meaningful training and the teachers who reject SEN as 'just being naughty' never get their heads wobbled.

Take it up with the government, save your bile for the ministers who have no idea what you are talking about... cos there is a paper on that!