Clean hands challenge, what the fuck is this about?

[NineInchNails]

So in two weeks time at work we will be having someone come in to do a clean hands challenge. My understanding is that this involves showing us how dirty our hands actually are using some machine.
Firstly, why bother? we have so much work to do, what on earth is the point?
Secondly, I probably have germy hands, I don't use anti bacterial anything! Gels, kitchen sprays nothing. The last time I was sick from work was two years ago and both my kids have not been off this year and only one of them once last year.
I think it's all ridiculous, dirt is good! Anyone with me or am I just a filthy cow

People have been scared of bacteria for ever. Back in the days before antibiotics it wa slide or death if you didn't keep clean. Women used to scrub houses clean way more than today and scrub kids hand sand faces with a bowl of boiled water

There is nothing wrong in teaching people to wash their hands properly.

However I do agree that the obsession with "germs" isn't healthy. Unless you know there is someone in the family with flu or the norovirus, enforcing the hospital style handwashing every 5 minutes is overkill. Obviously people who work in hospitals need to take more care but not in a normal house or office.

We avoid anti bac where possible too, I wash down the kitchen surfaces with hot soapy water when needed. I don't bleach the hell out of everything, we have never owned antibac gels and my heart sinks when you see another scaremongering ad about needing antibac washing liquid for your clothes because they'e all so germy. Ridiculous.

Antibiotic resistance is a real and growing problem and I don't think people appreciate just what a world without effective antibiotics would be like. Bacteria are clever wee things which will mutate if we keep nuking them with antibac sprays and gels and we'll all be worse off.

Years ago we also had the plague

I wash my hands quite a lot. But never use anti-bac, the stuff eats the skin of my hands (recurring ezcema on them). Never had antibiotics (except once as a child), and never sick. I have eaten some pretty unsanitary things, slept in the same room as vermins repeatedly, and I really think it built up my resistance. I have no contact with sick people or elderly, so until I do, I will give the anti-bac a pass. But yes, good soap and water are a must.

To put this into perspective in 10 years there may be no post operative antibiotics available. Would you want to have an op then?

Having watched a relative die to c-diff, in the most horrific, dignity free painful disgusting death and knowing it was preventable by being clean, I think over reacting is not the issue. The nursing staff sent clothes home covered in shit. The beds had shit on them. You couldn't see it with the naked eye. All the people who died in Mid Staffs didn't need to die. They died through carelessness.

It's preventable and not 'over reacting'. Why are we killing people in the belief that germs are good for us?

Maybe it's over reacting to germs which is causing resistance in the first place?

We got carried away with being able to cure everything with antibiotics. Over prescribing is one part of the problem. It could be done so it was.

That's not the same as preventing germs from spreading.

You don't need antibiotics as much if you aren't spreading things. Which is the other half of the issue. So we became more lax on hygiene when we had cures. Now we have less cures we have to find a new way of preventing spread.

So for everyone who has iron lungs and stomachs, doesn't mean you aren't spreading germs in public areas such as toilets or communal kitchens, or sneezing and holding onto stair rails. Do as you wish in your own home but I think it's almost public service to be socially aware of risks to others, hand washing is so simple but amazingly effective.

You aren't helping society to get immunity by spreading your colds around. People just get ill, some don't recover. They don't get stronger immunity from getting your cold or your norovirus if they have a heart condition.

You aren't helping society to get immunity by spreading your colds around. People just get ill, some don't recover. They don't get stronger immunity from getting your cold or your norovirus if they have a heart condition
*
But I don't have norovirus or colds because I have a strong immune system because I don't wash my hands all day and use antibacterial products. I don't think people are getting my point.* Surely if we continue to sanitise and disinfectant our children so much it only gets worse for future generations as they can't build up immunity? Still taking the valid point about vulnerable people though and wondering if I should be scrubbing my hands more for their sake. It seems all rather cyclical.

Oops got the boldness of font muddled up. I didn't say the first bit on the last post, I didn't!

I get your point, Nails, and completely agree!

Phew!

No not sanitise. Just wash hands properly, with hot soapy water. A lot of people think washing your hands is sticking under the tap. No one should be anti-bac-ing their kids. Just simple awareness - use tissues, wash hands before eating, after toilet, before making food - help yourself and others that's all it is.
Don't get confused with immunity and hygiene. Immunity is many other factors, it's linked to breast milk etc, we also have vaccinations for these reasons.

What we are talking about is not spreading simple illnesses onto others in the misguidance that we are helping the worlds immunity out, it doesn't work like that. There will still be risks all around us that we can't avoid, but the ones we can, we should.

It's like the nits debate isn't it. Should we just let them run free because they don't really harm you (annoying and uncomfortable as they are) or should you take precautions to avoid them? Over use of chemicals has made those little bastards resistant as well so less chemicals, awareness of prevention - better for all

I think also what I am trying to say as well is that it isn't just about immunity.
nowadays we have more and more conditions such as heart disease, diabetes - which we need to work to prevent. Someone might have fairly good immunity to flu but their underlying health conditions such as heart disease lowers their immunity and puts them at greater risk. So a little cold 10 years ago to them now turns into something more serious. There are so many other health issues to address aside from our immunity - what's the point in having immunity if vast sections of society have heart disease too which makes them weaker etc

Good debate to have to be honest

I was forever being told I had a rubbish immune system, that I should take multi vits, wash my hands more/less, use anti bac, no you're using too much anti bac and I ended up feeling like I was doing something wrong to be constantly full of colds/chest infections/tonsillitis/pneumonia etc etc etc
Turns out I was ill and had virtually no neutrophils to fight anything. Now I'm injecting a bone marrow drug, I'm a lot healthier ( and glaring at people who still think vitamin C will cure me) but I am conscious to be clean out the house
In the house I don't fuss apart from the obvious like raw chicken but a bit of dust is fine

I'm very confident about my own hand hygiene but unless other people stop touching door handles etc I need to be confident about theirs too so I'd be very grateful if someone came and educated co workers!

Definitely, nobody gets stronger immune systems from being exposed to illness. What we can get is some immunity to diseases we've been exposed to.
Hygiene was probably the most important factor in reducing infectious diseases..
There's a limit to vaccines and many bacteria havê developed or are likely to acquire multi-antibiotic resistance.

If you get ill doctors won't be able ro cure you.
So, our best bet is to maintain hygiene standards. Not over the top anti-back or gloves, but basic soap based hand hygiene.

a nice little anecdote: when swine flu hit my dc was in nursery.
as advised they introduced a rigorous handwashing regime.
the result was astonishing! d&v bugs were reduced dramatically!

I bet threadworms did too.

A majority of antibiotic use in this country is in animals, in farming (because disease is so widespread in intensive farming due to conditions and proximity).

If we want to slow down antibiotic resistance developing, we need to look at agriculture, not just what little Johnny is being prescribed when he has a cold.

Hand hygiene is of course important to prevent bacteria spread but that is a separate issue.

absolutely and there are big initiatives to reduce antibiotic use in agriculture.

but that doesn't me we shouldn't do anything about it as well!

something to read if you are interested

Interesting re the school's hand washing campaign. When I was at primary school the toilets were outside, there was no toilet paper and no soap (& no locks on the doors). So the toilets were to be avoided mostly. But of course we weren't drinking constantly so it was possible to get to the end of school without needing to go to the toilet. We didn't ever have outbreaks of D&V - I'd never heard of threadworm until I joined MN.

I grew up on a farm - I definitely knew about threadworm, and could have told its life cycle from about age 7.

FucksSakeSusan

The point was not about how antibiotic resistance emerges. It's already here.
The point was about avoiding getting infected, because antibiotics are losing their efficacy and we can't be sure that we can easily treat any infection.

My DP grew up on a farm and never had thread worms. One of his siblings had it once. But maybe depends on the type of live stock you had?