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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Recruitment, can't believe how hard it is!

474 replies

Sunnydawn · 16/11/2016 20:29

I read and hear so much about people wanting flexible working, and how so many people are stuck in dead end jobs, or on zero hours contracts.

But, I am involved in recruitment for two jobs right now, one a professional job in a lovely environment, as a part time job share. The other, a part time, flexible, admin job, again in a lovely office, with training and a good career if you want it.

And no decent applicants! No applicants for the first. Loads who have applied for the latter, but ecan't even attempt the basics forvan interview or trial (ie. turning up in time, dressing half smart, answer a phone).

Frankly, I despair. What are people doing? Where are they working/wanting to work?

These are different places, by the way, so it's not the particular environment.

OP posts:
Alyosha · 17/11/2016 13:50

What is your company's rating on glassdoor?

Do you advertise the salary up front? If not, why not?

venusinscorpio · 17/11/2016 13:57

I have worked for an education charity before so am registered with reed education because I am on the main reed site, which I didn't actually ask for but can't seem to get myself removed. I get lots of emails from recruiters asking me to apply for teaching jobs despite my utter lack of experience or qualifications in teaching of any sort!

ShotsFired · 17/11/2016 13:58

I am a member/admin for a job vacancy board for my village and nearby.

It is really depressing to see so many women (I don't actually recall the last time a man posted along these lines) saying "do you have anything between school hours" in response to an ad for a great F/T vacancy. I think there may be a huge pool of qualified women stuck in this neverland.

That said. On the flip side, when P/T jobs ARE posted, the thread is deluged with responses like "yes pls" "interested hun", "more info xxx" - as if that is even a REMOTELY appropriate way to respond to an employer posting a job.

I also not-infrequently see replies publicly slagging the employer off on-board of they have not got back to the respondents in whatever timeframe the slagger feels appropriate. Oh yeah, they'll be lining up to offer it to you now, "hun".

StatisticallyChallenged · 17/11/2016 14:01

I am on a local fb group for jobs and that summarises it perfectly. Oh, with a side order of parents trying to get jobs for their adult children.

Graphista · 17/11/2016 14:06

Today 12:21 venusinscorpio

"Sorry that British jobseekers haven't tugged their forelocks quite enough for you."

Sorry but I totally agree with this post!

Pissseedoofff

I have read and agreed with many of your posts elsewhere but your attitude on this stinks!

'In other countries'- you're not in other countries now

Here in U.K. We have the SHITE that is the current govts enforced application targets coupled with sanctions targets. People on jsa are in a corner!

'Get more training' - where? Paid for by who? There's been massive cuts to even basic post compulsory education. The nearest place to me which does the ecdl training is 3.5 HOURS travel away, not only prohibitive in time but also cost as you can no longer get full expenses coverage for such travel.

Local college runs some basic vocational courses but they're massively over subscribed and under funded.

Uni places are increasingly hard to get and find and that's even harder for parents to do.

Calling in for interview people YOU KNOW you're not going to offer the job to, therefore costing them time and money they could apply to an employer that DOES want them - especially despicable if you're doing this to people on benefits!

If you ACTUALLY want to advise/help them, do so by phone/email and save them a trip (that they've paid for plus possibly had to pay/arrange childcare). And contact your mp about the shocking way the country is being run in terms of addressing skills shortages.

I've looked into when I was well enough various roles which suit my existing skills and experience and my latest degree but required various additional qualifications BUT when I looked into getting those qualifications the courses were either hundreds of miles away, prohibitively expensive without even any discounts/help from govt to fund or both. Yet the industries and the govt complain there aren't people qualified in these areas and the roles aren't being filled!

OdinsLoveChild · 17/11/2016 14:22

I think some of the issues are caused by companies using recruitment agencies to make the decision as to whether someone is suitable to be recommended for interview. Surely only the company itself is actually able to decide if someone is suitable or not?

I've been trying for years to go back to work as an employee (I am currently self employed due to necessity). Unfortunately for me the last 3 companies I worked for all went bankrupt and I was made redundant as a result. I have no references from those roles and I haven't been able to trace any staff to provide a reference for me. I have repeatedly explained this to recruitment agencies I have registered with but they cannot put me forward for positions because I have this long gap being a sahm and the lack of suitable work references. I have never committed an offence, never been in prison, I hold a full enhanced disclosure due to training as a volunteer sports coach I also keep up to date with a huge variety of training just to keep my brain active and in the hope one of them will be useful in finding work. I hold qualifications in Business law, HR, Project Management, Business Management, basic IT (Excel, PowerPoint etc) But I have no work place experience or references to go with them so pointless.

Im smart, well spoken, keen to work but I am not flexible in that I can't do overtime or weekends and I can't work away because I don't have anyone to have my children. I am flexible in that I am happy to do whatever is necessary for the role including more training. I would be the ideal candidate but I can't get past the paper sift. I think if I could get through to the interview stage I could explain my cv better but the agencies will not put my application through because I don't fit their criteria in little tick boxes.

It's heartbreaking really it is Sad

DrDreReturns · 17/11/2016 14:24

When I see the word 'flexible' in a job advert it says, to me, that the employer wants you to be at their beck and call at anti social hours. It rarely works the other way imo.

Pisssssedofff · 17/11/2016 14:27

Graphista I totally agree re training and do as much as I can, including interviewing people purely to get the job centre off their backs.
It's no skin off my nose if people want to ignore my advice it really isn't. I don't struggle to find qualified people - and I have creative solutions if I ever did - I'd make the employers pay for the licences for a start. But I do find in the uk there's less openness to being guided shall we say.

Pisssssedofff · 17/11/2016 14:28

OdinsLoveChild PM and I'll send you my LinkedIn details, see if anyone in my network can help

Arkengarthdale · 17/11/2016 14:31

I'm an executive pa with excellent skills and I can only dream of earning half that round 'ere (rural, long way from London). Seriously, if I could get a £25k job I'd be ecstatic.

'Competitive' usually means 'in excess of minimum wage', but not by much. Recruitment agencies badger me to take roles at £15k because the employer would love me. Well, yes, I bet they would - all these skills and experience for a bargain basement price. You don't pay for a Nissan Micra and expect to drive a Lexus, do you?

It's soul destroying. Hours spent on application forms, covering letters etc, matching skills to job/person spec and then not getting an interview.

And yes - part-time pay for full-time travel costs is a no-no for me. Only works for local people, not people
Who have to travel an hour to get there.

I am even willing to relocate to get appropriate work, although that means two salaries running two houses instead of two salaries into one house. I fear I'll never work again.

Arkengarthdale · 17/11/2016 14:34

Sorry, that ended up being far more miserable than it should be!

Op, I'll do your £50k admin role, wherever it is in the country.

I'm deadly serious.

Arkengarthdale · 17/11/2016 14:37

Sorry again - Whispering - I'll do your £50k admin job Smile

Lorelei76 · 17/11/2016 14:40

haven't read whole thread
someone has a £50k admin job?

please PM me!!!!

phoenix1973 · 17/11/2016 14:50

Flexible means they want the applicant to be flexible.
Never that the employer will be flexible.

Oatsinajar · 17/11/2016 14:50

50K admin job?! Please do PM me with details, I will apply :)

Shellym13 · 17/11/2016 14:52

I run a jobs page in Facebook for people to share and post vacancies. We have over 32k members and a lot of local employers now which is amazing but it never fails to amaze me how much people expect to be given stuff on a plate. Asking employers to contract them, not reading the ads and asking for alternate application details or more info when theres a telephone number provided. I honestly think no one wants to use a phone gir making calls anymore! Not to mention the amount of mums applying on their kids behalf .
Seriously! I love that loads of people have found work through it but there will always be those who go through the motions with no real intention of actually securing a job.

LestatVonGaribaldi · 17/11/2016 15:08

whispering if the role is London/Surrey give me a pm. I'm an ex-solicitor looking for a non legal part time role.

SaagMasala · 17/11/2016 16:06

Statistically Challenged You have explained so well why I hate recruitment agencies. Too many companies I see just trawling CVs looking for certain buzzwords and ignore the rest. Add to this the number of HR departments recruiting for specialist roles which they have no real knowledge of. This goes a long way to explain why I couldn't get a job in IT (software developer) after 2 redundancies, despite 15 years varied experience across many platforms. I specialised in financial systems, having also worked as a wages/accounts clerk/bookkeeper. In my head I thought that was far more valuable than not knowing the very latest flavour of operating system xyz.

I was told by one agency that my CV usually got rejected because
(a) I didn't have a degree;
(b) I was 40;
(c) I was female.

I know discrimination on these latter 2 categories is illegal, but you'd have to be extremely naive not to realise it's still a problem. Its just that its not acknowledged for what it is.

20 years later I have managed to change the first 2 "excuses", but I'm not going to change my gender just to get a job. It might be interesting to see what other excuses they come up with though.

Anna275 · 17/11/2016 16:20

I think there are quite a few issues at play here. In my current role I'm assisting the HR department with upgrading their web presence and so have seen many job descriptions. Some recruiters seem incapable of explaining the job in plain language. There was one job above that mentioned data. "Data entry and experience with Microsoft Office applications" is appropriate for an admin position. But when you start talking about compiling data and creating data reports it starts to sound more like data analysis, which might cause most admin candidates to not apply. Generally, people looking for part time work to fit around school hours tend to be female. Many studies have shown that women will not apply for jobs where they don't meet every criteria, whereas men will take a risk and apply anyway. If you are recruiting for part time roles it might be beneficial to only list the essential skills.

The other factor is that the job market is changing. It's so heavily skewed in the employer's favour anymore. When I was a graduate I had recruiters calling me and interviewing me on the spot, or acting like I had missed my opportunity because I didn't answer their call on the first attempt (when I did not know they were going to call in the first place). At one point I was interviewing for temp positions in London and the recruiter couldn't grasp how admin skills were transferable to a receptionist position. Confused

It's not the same market anymore and, especially if they are recruiting for low-skilled position, some employers will need to be more flexible in who they are willing to hire. Are you giving candidates explicit advice on what to wear and how the interview is a hard start time? For many of us who watched our parents get up and go to the office everyday we just KNOW these things. But if you are recruiting from a candidate pool where this was not the norm you may need to coach them, even if it seems like these things should be obvious. I would also try not to be so stringent on qualifications, unless there's a legal requirement for having a specific certification. I don't work in Project Management but I've seen countless positions advertising that the candidate must have the PMP certification. Surely a candidate who has years of experience is just as valuable? These certifications were helpful when there was a high unemployment rate and recruiters need a way to screen people out, but it's not as necessary. Good recruiters should be able to discern from an interview and CV if a candidate meets the criteria rather than just relying on a certification. I attended a well-regarded university in the UK that was about 85% international and we were told over and over again that the UK is a little bit "certification obsessed" compared to other job markets. Having worked abroad in several other countries I can confirm this. Obviously certifications have their place in fields like healthcare but for low skilled jobs it might be worth being a bit more flexible in your criteria and providing more on the job training.

venusinscorpio · 17/11/2016 16:44

Totally agree with all your points, Anna.

Bobochic · 17/11/2016 16:48

Are you sure that your job description is realistic? Sometimes the list of skills required is a bit of a catch all that very few people can actually comply with (or want).

Otherpeoplesteens · 17/11/2016 16:53

Apologies in advance if this proves to be too long, but having read the thread I could do with letting it out and it may shed some light on some of the previous posts, as well as explain why I find it very difficult to sympathise with recruiters’ whinges.

I graduated into the dotcom recession with a first in Economics. I thought I’d landed on my feet, but I was one of those lucky 200 people who had a job offer for M&S’s graduate programme which was then withdrawn in May 1999 after I’d already made financial commitments (car loan etc) on the basis of the offer. My overriding recollection is that while job-hunting was tough, recruiters were at least still professional: almost every application got some sort of response, back in the day when it incurred the cost of a stamp. Where I did meet hiring managers unsuccessfully, I almost always got feedback when I asked. Most of it was really helpful.

I took a job in a call centre (£11k, in 2000) to avoid ending up on the streets and worked my way up through that company via its graduate scheme, which I eventually helped recruit for, to a national business development role. Without wanting to boast, I was good enough in that job to be headhunted by a rival. I got made redundant from that rival in the early stages of the financial crisis, and when looking for jobs then (2007) found standards beginning to slip. Only about half of my applications warranted a response of any description and I even had two face to face final interviews where they didn’t bother to let me know the outcome.

I got a £50k job in the NHS in a role which I loved, and was widely praised for, but which has now disappeared with changing health policy and one of the Coalition restructures. Seeing that the writing was on the wall, a number of years ago I took the plunge and did a full time MBA at a globally-recognised Business School. The course fees alone came to over US$80k, and of course I didn’t work for two years while doing it. I funded it from my life savings.

I’m outlining all this because I can reasonably claim to be well-educated, experienced, literate and numerate, and pretty capable of knowing what I can and cannot do in the workplace.

In the three and a half years since I came back to the UK I have worked for about a year in total. I’ve managed to land two well-paid interim contracts through an agency which I rate very highly, and have done a few smaller ones too on the basis of personal referrals. My experience of job-hunting otherwise has left me distraught, depressed and - on occasion - contemplating suicide.

I’ve made about a thousand applications. About three quarters of those were forced by the job centre or I was desperate for anything and employing a scattergun approach, and while I was capable of doing all of them, put minimal effort into the application. The Universal Jobmatch system the DWP require one to use if you’re claiming JSA didn’t even let one attach a covering letter. It’s hardly surprising I never got a single response to any of them, and hardly surprising that employers get frustrated with Job Centre applications and applicants. That particular system is well and truly fucked and seems designed to create jobs for people to sanction JSA recipients, rather than match employers to talent.

The other 266 jobs I’ve applied for since 2013 (I keep a spreadsheet to track the ones I’m serious about) are also pretty instructive about the UK employment market and the experiences of job-seekers. In all of these, I have met all of the essential criteria in the person spec if it’s available, and I usually meet the bulk of the desirable ones too.

The overwhelming majority of applications just disappear into a black hole. It’s particularly irritating when the advert reappears two months later and says “previous applicants need not apply” when I have no idea if the employer even received it in the first place.

Not getting responses to an application for a job I am eminently suited to is bad enough, but it is now sadly normal not to be told of the outcome even after attending an interview, and even after contacting them to ask. It is also normal for recruiters to not bother holding telephone interviews they’ve arranged, or to bugger candidates about in other ways – constantly rescheduling at the last minute for example. I get that sometimes things come up, but I had one guy rearrange five times in the space of two weeks, before then saying that the position had already been filled!

Recruiters lie. Not all do by any means, but very few seem to add any kind of value. I’ve had the initial rush of excitement followed by radio silence. I’ve had the ones who ignored me, only to start pestering me about my hiring needs when I’ve been in jobs. I’ve had the ones who wanted to know names of people who could verify claims in my CV, only to then go and pester them about their hiring needs. I’ve had the ones claiming to have the hiring manager’s ear, when in reality they’re no better placed than any of the other twenty agents trying to sell a candidate.

One asked me to travel to central London for an interview (over 200 miles, and a phenomenally expensive undertaking at short notice) and his opening gambit – literally the first thing that came out of his mouth after introductions and pleasantries – was: “You don’t have the experience my client is looking for. I knew that anyway from your CV but thought I’d invite you in for a chat anyway.”

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Other experiences include the company that wanted a full market analysis for their expansion strategy (yes, of course I’m going to provide two weeks of consulting work for free); the company that interviewed everyone their recruiter longlisted for an opening that never existed simply to pump them for information; the one that approached me directly on Linkedin with all the noises about how I was just what they were looking for, then didn’t longlist me; and the one that didn’t attempt to hide that they had rigged the assessment centre by using real internal documents which gave the internal candidate a huge advantage (he had co-written it, the other two of us were given 20 minutes to read over 70 pages).

My particular favourite, though, was the public sector body which advertised a vacancy with a closing date of the following day. I kid you not. I applied, got an interview, and when I arrived for it the hiring manager expressed surprise and dismay that I’d “sneaked through” – his words. That job went to an internal candidate.

I want to sympathise with businesses that struggle to attract the resources they need, I really do, but there have been times when the recruitment industry has left me totally broken as a result of pure callousness, never mind dysfunction. Like previous posters have said, it can be soul destroying to know what you can offer to people desperate for it, only to be turned away or totally ignored. It is brutal out there.

roundaboutthetown · 17/11/2016 17:06

Or to put it another way, if job applicants are going downhill and getting lazy, it's highly unlikely employers are not heading in the same direction. Employers don't want the hassle of training anyone up, don't want the hassle of reading an unusual CV, don't want the hassle of responding to applications, don't really want the hassle of providing good customer service to paying clients, let alone potential canon fodder employees...

Arkengarthdale · 17/11/2016 17:07

Great post Otherpeoplesteens

Alyosha · 17/11/2016 17:17

I once did three interviews including a presentation for a company and never received a final response. I was also told the wrong things over the phone (that there was a job that didn't in fact exist) and was generally mucked about. Consequently I now never buy anything from the company that treated me that way (SSP - they run Delice de France, Whistlestop, Pumpkin, Upper Crust etc.) - which is hard as I travel a lot!

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