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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

New £23k Benefit Cap.

1001 replies

legotits · 07/11/2016 12:52

AIBU to ask if anyone still supports this?

Which families is this targeted at?

Anyone who will be affected, is it even feasible to not be pushed into debt?

OP posts:
HmmmmBop · 07/11/2016 17:02

The stay at home choice is no longer possible for single mums or couples on a low income

I think the blanket 'cap' isn't a good thing at all and I foresee that there will be a lot of people forced into poverty / homelessness. However, people saying things like this ^ or the poster the other day complaining about having to dip into her £50 per week savings are exactly why we have ended up in the situation.

Most working families would struggle to save £50 per month, let alone week, and of all the families that I know where one partner works a tiny percentage do so out of choice, they purely can't afford to survive on only one wage.

MangoMoon · 07/11/2016 17:03

the cap means I will be made homeless or forced into work leaving my 2 youngest in childcare

What's the problem with working & having your children in childcare?
That's what millions of other mothers do.

Graphista · 07/11/2016 17:05

1 'work should pay more than benefits’

Yes it should - by making employers pay an ACTUAL living wage that doesn't require subsidisation by the country. Especially despicable when it's massive international conglomerates who avoid paying the correct taxes and have huge profits.

'small businesses can't afford to pay a living wage’ while I do think partly to encourage economic growth small and new businesses should get some support to pay a living wage, there's a lot of businesses being started by people who don't know what they're doing and the businesses aren't viable. If within 2 years you can't afford to pay employees a living wage, it's not a viable business certainly max 5 years.

Higher wage also = more income tax and NI paid, more spending (more tax paid as vat, business taxes)

'but companies will just outsource’ in practical terms this is not always possible for a company to do anyway, only certain jobs this can apply to. You can't outsource to another country:

Cleaning, waitressing, care work, retail assistants, refuse collection, engineering, physical work on roads, water supply, electrical supply, gas supply, phone lines, internet connection lines, building, plumbing, hairdressing, child care…

And for those that can be outsourced - penalties if they do so too much or in a way detrimental to the economy. That's the kind of thing legislation is for. There's too much pandering to the wealthy. (Typical and predictable tory behaviour).

2 'people shouldn't get away with CHOOSING not to work’

The jobs AREN'T THERE! Even according to govts own stats there's approximately 30% more people seeking work than jobs available.

Where I live there hasn't been a job offering over 16 hours in almost a year, all jobs advertised receive hundreds of applications. Part of the reason is employers refusing to offer 16+ hours as this triggers employee rights. I've actually seen jobs recently advertised where the number of hours available were less than 10 (not weekend/eve jobs).

The support to return to work that WAS there isn't any more. Help with clothes for working, transport, childcare deposits, all been cut.

There's SUPPOSED to be an 'overlap’ so that someone who’s in receipt of benefits who then gets a job isn't stuck while waiting on first (usually monthly in arrears) pay cheque. The reality is the second you tell DWP/tax credits/council you have a job, all payments are stopped. So many people on benefits are risking a conviction for fraud (which could lead to loss of job) to not tell until they get first pay cheque.

Because the system can't cope with changes in circumstances temp jobs, jobs with varying pay (shifts, zero hours) are not practical for most people.

Anecdata - ‘I know this family who are all work shy scroungers’

a - stats even the govts own prove people like this are very much in a tiny minority

b - do you know this family's entire educational, medical and employment history? I doubt it. I personally have been accused of this simply because my disability is invisible and I don't broadcast my mh issues (nobody else's business well certainly not some snotty neighbour who barely knows me!)

3 'if you can't get a job retrain’

Cuts mean many courses have been cancelled. Again, here the nearest ecdl course is now 3.5 hours commute away. Current rules on transport expense payments don't cover this. The few courses that do run locally are massively oversubscribed and underfunded in terms of materials. Also means loads of tutors out of work and can't get 'ordinary’ jobs as they're 'overqualified’.

Only some training courses are considered 'acceptable’ if you're in receipt of benefits. If you're on jsa it's sometimes even seen as 'avoiding getting a job’!

4 'don’t have kids if you can't afford em’

People's circumstances change. I was married and in very good health when I had my daughter. I had no reason to think I would experience marital breakdown, ex not paying maintenance, acquiring mental illness and a disability, my daughter developing a disability.

Contraception is not 100% not even supposedly permanent ones. If you take that to a conclusion of enforced celibacy that would surely lead to MORE relationship breakdowns and the increased costs that would incur (plus it's bloody inhuman literally!)

In addition I wonder how many of you knew/know that the new cap on 2 children for tax credits also applies to children who are the result of rape? If a woman is raped if she can't PROVE it was rape (and we all know how easy that is Hmm) She'll still be subject to the cap. So not just punishing single mum's for BEING single mum's but punishing rape victims.

This is more often than not directed at mothers - in terms of lone parents fathers, who are usually the absent parent don't get nearly the same vilification. Even IF they pay maintenance it is nowhere near what the mother, state or both are paying towards the cost of raising a child that's half theirs. The cms should have stronger powers and the amount needs to be increased and no deductions allowed. Surely the 'dont have kids if you can't afford them’ should also apply to men having more children with a new partner? The older children didn't disappear/stop needing fed!

5 'housing benefit shouldn't be going to private landlords’

I agree BUT as several others have said there's a huge lack of social housing. 7 year waiting list here and that's even with rules that only those in genuine need can even APPLY to go on the list. 2 new housing developments recently built, neither are low cost but will be sold on the 2nd home market to the very wealthy. (Picturesque area). Right to buy one of the worst policies EVER.

Investing FAR more in social housing would create jobs, provide training in skills we're losing, boost the economy, create cheaper housing for those that need it, improves positive community feeling.

6 'live somewhere cheaper/move’

Not possible if you're on benefits. Bloody hard to find landlords that will take on claimants anyway. In addition the poor can't save up deposits, moving costs, up to 6 months rent in advance.

Would incur further costs to the country by:

Moving people away from their support networks leading to decrease in mental health, increase in physical ill health, increase in childcare costs, increase in the poor working needing time off for their own/children's sickness.

More demand on properties in cheaper areas pushes rents up.

Cheaper areas usually have higher unemployment/fewer jobs therefore MORE likely to need benefits for longer.

Makes more expensive areas more elitist, so increases rents here too.

Workers on low wages living outside the area they work in means they need more support to get to work, are doing longer commutes leading to more ill health (mental and physical).

More pressure on transport into the more expensive area for commuting purposes.

but God forbid common sense be applied!

“I have always said, if the benefits life is so great, why dont you pack in your jobs and go on it yourselves then?”

Exactly! Particularly applies to those that think it's easy to get benefits! In my experience the people vilifying we claimants usually haven't ACTUALLY experienced not only benefits but even poverty, let alone disability or sickness or being a carer! Have you never heard 'there but by the grace of God?’

Shelter estimates there are 8 million families in England and Wales one pay cheque away from homelessness. Several of the arrogant posters supporting these cuts will one day be claimants themselves - I wonder if their views will change THEN!

needsahalo · 07/11/2016 17:05

Surely if it is known where the father is they have to pay, how do they get out of it?

Self employment mainly. Accountants can legally make huge portions of income disappear. Putting assets into family member's name, paying new wife/brother a wage that they give back. Being employed through one or more,agencies can make it difficult to get maintenance paid as you are on and off payroll. Cash on hand is also an option in some jobs. Being a student, or giving up work to care for a 'new' child also works.

It's not hard and you don't even need to be particularly determined.

legotits · 07/11/2016 17:06

Queen the 11k is a large family in London.

I'm from yorkshire I could buy a house for 11k but we don't compare it because it isn't relevant.

The point was what looks like loads written
doesn't equate to a fat wallet.

OP posts:
AyeAmarok · 07/11/2016 17:07

Frank, many ways.

They go self-employed and lie about earnings (CMS don't check that what they declare on CM forms is different to HMRC forms).

They give up work and go on benefits, and have to pay a paltry £5 a week, that's not enforced.

They work cash in hand.

They just don't pay. And the CMS doesn't deduct at source until way, waaaaaaay down the line. Even then, the receiving parent needs to pay for that service.

The CMS also doesn't enforce payment of arrears.

The only NRPs who do pay typically are those on PAYE, even then, bonuses, dividends, pension contributions, company cars etc can all be manipulated to reduce the already low amount.

PrincessPink999 · 07/11/2016 17:07

I fully support it. It shouldn't be possible to earn more from benefits than working. I hated leaving my children in childcare from a few months old to go back to work and I don't think it's fair that others don't have to do this and are "paid" to stay at home. My teenage children walked straight into part time jobs to gain extra money as soon as they started looking - one of them has a Saturday job and an evening job so the jobs are there!

Middleoftheroad · 07/11/2016 17:09

It's a scary prospect for those who genuinely need it/have paid into the system. I think there's a new Ken Loach film that explores this.

After I was made redundant my DH brought that amount after tax. we did have some tax credits but despite having twins, only got one new baby allowance. We got stung by the banks and mortgage rate was sky high.

It was tight but we managed. DH worked very long hrs in a demanding professional job believe it or not.

We had to pay for prescriptions, school trips and uniform, husband's dental treatment, council tax etc. I'm not sure if the new cap includes those basic elements of medicine, dental and school meals.

Also, if those in council housing get much cheaper rents than private? if there are any concessions for the private renters over subsidised council rents. Need to read up more.

I can understand why people on lower wages can feel this is do-able, but it scares me that if I became ill or fell on hard times then then could I access a decent standard of living.

SheldonCRules · 07/11/2016 17:13

Forced into childcare .... you mean like the children of working parents who pay the tax for there to be a benefit system in the first place.

If policies like this affect woman more that's only natural. Men can't get pregnant, can't have abortions etc. It's always the woman's choice not the mans to get pregnant and have a child. There are lots of contraception options available, most "accidental" pregnancies are down to mis use or non at all.

The cap is still too high, it should be less than NMW so that people are,not better off for doing nothing than those that go to work. If that means harsh choice in life then they can always gain employment like the majority of the population. Rewarding the lazy under the guise of "welfare" has simply encouraged a lack of self responsibility and children born in their thousands outside of stable long term relationships.

We should have a duty legally to provide for any children we choose to have, both sexes not just males. If we can't afford them without state support then we shouldn't be having them. There are lots of things in life people have the budget for or not have, it's part of life.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 07/11/2016 17:13

We had to pay for prescriptions, school trips and uniform, husband's dental treatment, council tax etc. I'm not sure if the new cap includes those basic elements of medicine, dental and school meals.

If you qualify then you can still get them. It has nothing to do with the cap. They are passport benefits.

SaucyJack · 07/11/2016 17:13

"I have 3 children age 13, almost 2 and 4 months. I'm a single mum in rented accommodation in Berkshire. My rent is already the lowest in the area for a 3 bed house"

So get a smaller property then. We have 3 in a 2 bed. Life goes on.

PortiaCastis · 07/11/2016 17:14

Don't you think I've tried to get OH found? Do you think it's fun paying a mortgage and bringing up a child on your own.
Makes me laugh when lots of Mn posters say LTB, yes and then what?
I did LTB in the middle of the night with a small child , broken arm and facial injuries. So now I'm a stigmatised single Mother.

Middleoftheroad · 07/11/2016 17:15

Sorry, I should add, it scares me that there are so many needy people in this position right now.

brasty · 07/11/2016 17:16

I actually think those with very young children should be exempt from this. I do think single parents should be able to stay at home with very young children.

If you have a severe disability, you get some other help too, although not enough. Local Authorities will pay for carers, many will pay for basic adaptations. Basic adaptations can include shower rooms. The issue is the cuts being made to Local Authority care.

needsahalo · 07/11/2016 17:19

It's always the woman's choice not the mans to get pregnant and have a child. There are lots of contraception options available, most "accidental" pregnancies are down to mis use or non at all

I don't know what kind of marriage you were in but having children in my now defunct marriage was a joint decision. We both had a choice and both made that choice.

Why should I be the one to live in poverty with my children whilst the ex lives it up?

What evidence do you have regarding your contraception claims?

PortiaCastis · 07/11/2016 17:19

I had been married for quite a while before becoming a single Mum. My child was planned his violence wasn't !!

PortiaCastis · 07/11/2016 17:21

Bloody benefits bashing tv and stereotyping do not help anyone

SheldonCRules · 07/11/2016 17:21

Working mothers get nine months SMP compared to non working mothers who can claim far more until their child is 5. How is it fair that tax payers get a worse deal than those simply taking from the system.

If all mums decided to simply not work, society would become untenable.

There shouldn't be one rule for one and one for another, all parents should be treated the same.

As for child support, yes it should be paid. It should also be deducted from benefits so that the state pay less. It's counted as income if the father lives with you so why is it suddenly not when they split? It's still money for the same child.

Tomorrowillbeachicken · 07/11/2016 17:22

If the man doesn't want a child he should put his wellies on if he wants to play in the puddles.
He should also take responsibility if he gets a woman pregnant.

ItShouldHaveBeenJess · 07/11/2016 17:23

its always the woman's choice not the man's to get pregnant and have a child

there are lots of contraception options

Yeah, like fucking condoms. Why should it be up to women to ingest God knows what because men can't be trusted/shouldn't be trusted to not to impregnate a woman? What a ridiculous, ignorant argument. So men can fuck who they want, never worry about contraception and never be held accountable for the children they procreate?

Taxi for sheldon - destination: back to the Middle Ages.

PortiaCastis · 07/11/2016 17:23

Child support is a very nice thing if you can get it !

ItShouldHaveBeenJess · 07/11/2016 17:24

My child was planned, his violence wasnt

THIS.

Tomorrowillbeachicken · 07/11/2016 17:24

Almost always the mans choice to stick his penis in a vagina too.

ItShouldHaveBeenJess · 07/11/2016 17:27

I can see why you chose your username, sheldon. Opinionated, inflexible and judgemental with no interest or empathy for how other people live.

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