To think you don't see many people with Down's syndrome anymore?

[Neonoen]

When I was a school there was a boy with downs syndome in my class. At secondary there was the first boy and then another one too.

I worked with a man with Downs syndrome at my first job (he taught me how to use the photocopier the first day after I wasted a whole reem of paper ). At the same time there was a woman who travelled on the same bus as me with Down syndrome and another who worked in McDonald's.

Yesterday on the TV they were interviewing that man who has the lead role in a new film (he has downs). DS asked why he spoke like that, I explained and then realised none of my children know what Down's syndrome is or have ever encountered anybody with it. There's no children with downs in their schools, no families with any members who have downs and no businesses that I can think of who employ anybody locally with Down's syndrome.

Other than the SN session at the local pool, I can't remember when I last encountered anybody with downs.

Is it just me? Is it a result of advanced ante natal testing?

In fact thinking of it I'm surprised at the lack of any experience my DC have of people with disabilities.

I really don't want to offend with this and hope I've used the correct terminology.

I have known a few people with DS, one being my cousin who died before he was one. Another woman died in her early 30s of heart failure having lived a semi-independent life (supported housing, part-time job in a hospital canteen). The other people I know are younger, 25, 22 & 19. I think younger mothers are more likely to have children with DS as they have less testing, it isn't something you think of as much when you are 25-30.

Haven't read the full thread but, if your kids ever watched Something Special on cbeebies, they will be aware of many types of disability. People moan about JF but imo he's brilliant.

Terminating a pregnancy isn't 'killing a baby' under UK law.

The law is very clear on the difference between a foetus and a live child.

If an individual woman perceives termination in that way that, of course, is her choice, but not a subjective value judgement she should force on others.

I would say the opposite.

When I was a child I knew of one person with Downs. My Mum said her friend had been told to "have him put away" but she was having none of that for of course he was as beloved as her other children. But I suspect that as he was the only one I ever saw that many others did "put" their children "away,"

45 years on I know of four children with Downs. However in the case of three of them, the mother did not know the baby had Downs before they were born (and I suspect the fourth didn't either.) I think they just had the normal screening you have round here, the blood test which gives you your chances (one was given 1:1000 and when her DC was born queried this and was told "well you were the one in a thousand" Helpful.)

I wonder what they would have done if the new widespread screening had been available.

I've seen quite a lot of DS people around, mostly young adults (there's one that I see fairly often around town with his mum) but also OH's little sister was in the inclusion class at daycare 3 years ago and had a girl with DS who came to her birthday party. I live abroad so maybe the rates are different here.

I don't see anything sad about the termination rate though. Women have a right to choose whether or not to continue a pregnancy. I refused testing when I was pregnant with DD because I felt at that point I would have really struggled to decide whether or not to terminate and did not want to put myself in that position, and I was young so the chances were less anyway. If I were to get pregnant again I would get the testing and most likely would terminate.

I see loads of people wth Downs all the time. There are several in our village and if I go out for coffee or shopping locally there's always a few people around. A local shop assistant has Downs, so I see him too.

I only know 2 adults with Downs, neither of whom are able to communicate really. Both middle aged. I'm in my 20s, living in NI and I've never actually seen a child with the condition.

I'd also say it has to do with the provision of effective contraception for older mothers- fewer 'wee late ones' being born.

Hey felines, I thought that was you! Good point abotu religious / cultural attitudes to termination. I don't pretend to know anything about it but I imagine it is a factor. It just struck me that the only white child with DS I've seen in a few years is the lovely B, while I've seen five or six ethnic minority children with DS out and about in my town. Anecdotal and not statistically significant, of course, but it made me wonder.

waves madly at Bertrand

Weirdly (and tangentially), when we go to local groups for children with learning disabilities, the vast majority are non-white and most have autism. It made me wonder whether parents from ethnic minorities are more likely to take advantage of the services on offer than white parents - maybe as a way of combatting social isolation? It's all rather fascinating.

My sister works in autism care as it happens. I believe there's a rather high incidence among the Pakistani community due to cousins marrying. It's not a problem if it's just one generation, but it is if the pattern is repeated oer the generations.

In the USA autism is twice as likely for African American children. I think I read something once that in the UK autism is more common in ethnic minorities. Not sure where I read that, during work or study so possibly a report or paper.

Really interesting! Thanks, bertrand and Jabuticaba.

gratefully, you are aware that as soon as you start using the emotive and inaccurate term "killing babies" to describe abortion, people roll their eyes and write you off as someone not to be taken seriously, right?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, including me, so I'm really not bothered.

I don't know why some people are insisting on making this personal. I haven't personally attacked anyone for their opinion

Unfortunately having an opinion on other people's behaviour involves judging them, which i don't think is right. You can say in that set of circumstances I would but you are not entitled to say in that set of circumstances they should....

And if it reaches 100%, how would people feel about that?

I think the choice is entirely up to the women who are carrying the babies.

I haven't said what anyone else should do

I don't remember knowing or meeting anyone with Down syndrome as a child (I'm in my 30s).

The only person I see regularly with Down's is a young man who goes swimming at the same time as me. More tangenitally the couple who we bought our house from had a granddaughter with Down's and a friend of a friend has a child with Down's.

According to an NHS website here, and an article by Ben Goldacre at the same time, there was a 4% increase in Down's syndrome live births in England and Wales from 1989 to 2006 (717 and 749 affected births in the two years respectively). In 2013 there were 717 live births with DS. Only about 65% cases of DS are diagnosed antenatally.

There are probably more Down's pregnancies nowadays, because more women are having babies later in life. On the other hand, a high proportion of those who get an antenatal diagnosis of Down's choose to have a termination. Amniocentesis has a 1% risk of miscarriage; the NIPT, which I think is to be offered on the NHS from 2018, would avoid this risk.

I think a lot of BME families with children with SN attend groups because there may still be a stigma within their own community and they may not be able to freely express themselves. Or, maybe it is just because they want to meet others who share a similar situation and live in an area where there is a greater BME demograph?

I must admit I did not meet any children with Downs when I was a child (in my 50s) but when I was 16/17 I found out that this was because they were mostly in institutions. A group of them used to come for riding lessons at the place I worked.

I see adults with DS but now you mention it I don't know when I last saw a child with DS. Two of my kids are mid 20s and when they were in primary school one of the mums had a DS baby, that is the last time I remember hearing about anyone having a DS baby.

I remember at the time my kids were in primary there was an article in the paper about a woman who had a baby with DS and she said it was hard that no one congratulated her. I think we had all read the article as when the mum arrived at school with new baby in the pram she was treated like a visiting celebrity and everyone was very enthusiastic about her beautiful baby. I hope she didn't feel that we were all being a bit strange.

I think they just had the normal screening you have round here, the blood test which gives you your chances (one was given 1:1000 and when her DC was born queried this and was told "well you were the one in a thousand" Helpful.)

I've heard that sort of thing as well, I think people don't always think it through and assume if their chance is low that means they will be OK when it just means their chance is low.

Also, the screening is shit.