To have disciplinary heard by manager who authorised project DH is being disciplined for?!

[Rose1ofmy5aday]

I think this set up is very unreasonable If anyone could help I'd be hugely hugely grateful. Today my DH got an email informing him that he needs to attend a disciplinary for gross misconduct. It's less than 48 hrs notice, is that right? What should we do?

This is the part that I really think is unreasonable - It's also being held by DHs manager who is the one that authorised DHs project which it is alleged he used confidential info.

Surely it cant be right, my DH says you gave me the go ahead, what's his manager going to do? Protect himself and say no I didnt. It can't be right that he holds disciplinary meeting can it?

Back story is that he was asked to work on a project from end of June to end Dec by his manager which was based on DHs idea of using information to create sales leads.

This was agreed with DHs manager and his managers manager.
Someone inside the organisation kicked up a fuss and said that he shouldn't be using that info.

This lead to him being questioned by internal affairs. He was told he couldn't be accompanied by anyone in that meeting, it was illegal for him to record the meeting and when he tried to make his own notes they asked him to stop at question 3 because it was taking too long. The meeting was minuted but DH has not seen the minutes to check if they are accurate. Only three people in meeting, one being DH two others are company representatives.

It's alleged that he deliberately misled people over what info was being used which is utter trash, as his manager and managers manager were fully aware.

My alarm bells are running riot. It's a large blue chip organisation that currently are making employees - usually long serving, high salary employees - redundant on basic Gov plans. I strongly suspect that this is a way to get someone out without paying redundancy.

Does anyone please have any idea what correct HR practise should be or what we should do?

To me the whole thing sounds really suspect and I think he's being made a scape goat.

Good luck with it all

Don't go in alone and always take someone with you

Request all the evidence and a copy of the disciplinary procedure

If they don't provide that you have rights to ask for a further adjournement as you couldn't prepare

Also it has to be heard by someone impartial not involved in the case at all

Ah, ok then that's not good. He should have had more time to prepare but maybe this is just the first hearing and he will get to put his side during it.

I wouldn't loose hope yet, as it seems more like a fishing expedition. I would say though he doesn't need to surrender his lap top for analysis, most companies these days, large blue chip ones anyway have all the data backed up to the server, so unless he deleted off the network drive or prevented back up, they will be able to access it remotely.

Sounds like to me they did an investigation in the background without involving him. Maybe the hearing is just a warning ..

I've now read the "evidence" and my blood is boiling.

We have asked for a full transcript of his first and only meeting but have not got it yet. It is "quoted" from in the evidence synopsis but it is really clear that separate sentences from different paragraphs have been put together to form a paragraph which DH is supposed to have said.

Anyone can cut and paste and arrange sentences to make it read however you want to!

They're also relying on the answers to three emails sent in succession by the same senior manager asking where the info for this project came from. First two are answered fully saying it draws on many lists etc. Entirely truthful. By third email asking the same question DH said he didn't email back as it was odd that he'd asked the same thing three times so he tried to phone (many times) to see what the guy actually wanted to know, but he would never return his calls.

Without wanting to sound dramatic, I think it sounds like entrapment. I think this senior manager knew there was going to be an investigation and was trying to get DH to write something specific in an email. I also think that is why he didn't answer his calls as it wouldn't be documented. In none of the sent emails to DH does it ever say did X give you this list so he could answer a simply yes or no.

There's also a mention of some employee who "did not believe" DH already had the names on the list. She was not in a position to know what he did or did not have. How can they just take this opinion as fact? He can thankfully show that the names on the list were already known and used within the project.

And a third of it is all about the person who sent the original email with info in it in the first place. How my DH can be held responsible for another persons actions is anyone's guess.

The man at the Union has said he'll ring today but so far hadn't. We could really use professional guidance I think.

Rose I think you should ask for this to be moved to Employment Issues. You've had some good advice here, but there are some excellent experts over there and they may be able to help you further. I wish you well, it sounds a horrid situation to be in.

The senior manager did no wrong, he has a right to ask and to keep asking if he felt the answer was not specific enough and if he was concerned about legality then wanting that in writing and not on a call is also ok.

Ignoring his third email wasn't clever. The senior manager probably instigated the investigation due to concern if he felt he wasn't getting the full answer, and this is his job.

So it reads like hubby was provided with some names and then it's suspected he used those names to gain competitive advantage, his view point is the names were already accessible and he had them prior to this from other non confidential sources, and he can prove that, via his documentation and associated time stamps?

I guess maybe the colleague who says she didn't think he had them, is maybe based on the fact the names were used after the email and not before?

I think if he can prove he had the names and intended to use them prior to the email then the company should be happy.

Hi Bluntness, thanks again for your feedback, it's very kind of you to take the time.

It is easy in hindsight to see exactly what the manager wanted to hear, and I fully accept he had a job to do, but his questions were answered fully. (Although obviously he didn't get the information he wanted to hear)

DH tried to phone and instant message after the third email so didn't really ignore it, he tried to answer specifically by giving him a call to discuss precisely what was needed.

DH followed that up with an email saying that he'd tried to contact to discuss can you give me a call when you can.

As per your advice, he is putting another list together which shows that all names on the email sent to him were in his possession prior to the email and already been established as historic contacts.

Could you shed about light on why DH is being held responsible for another person sending the email to him?

I can understand how someone might object to information being used once it is sent, but can't fathom how he can take responsibility for someone else's actions and it being sent. It is actually part of the allegation against DH.

The issue around the email that was sent to him might be that if he knew or ought to have known that the information was confidential / should not have been sent to him, then he should have reported the email to managment and not acted on it.

Ok, some starting points.

www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/f/m/Acas-Code-of-Practice-1-on-disciplinary-and-grievance-procedures.pdf

www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/s/o/Acas-Guide-on-discipline-and-grievances_at_work_(April_11)-accessible-version-may-2012.pdf

His company policies should be in line. He needs to request these. Not just the disciplinary but any policy they quote from.

www.personneltoday.com/hr/disciplinary-procedures-10-common-breaches-of-the-acas-code-of-practice/

If they are accusing your dh of misusing data then should be able to prove that he has been trained appropriately in data handling, maybe refreshed in his training before his new idea was put into practice. His company should be able to provide this so make sure he asks.

Any witnesses should be available for questioning during the hearing. He needs to advise the company he wants them. He can then ask them for the evidence of fact not opinion.

Check dates carefully as often managers get so carried away they add things in that couldn't have happened-did something happen while he was on holiday for example.

Hope this helps a little.

Many thanks for all your advice.

Could you shed about light on why DH is being held responsible for another person sending the email to him?

Not really unfortunately. The email with info on it is so insignificant in terms of what he was doing on his project. There are so many lists already in existence with the same or very similar information on. That's why we don't really get it.
We have also now found a specific email (amongst the hundreds we have confirming that umpteen managers were consulted with) to the direct manager which names the person who sent this email as a person that DH would be going to for information...

We've been told they will not give DH a copy of the minutes of his meeting with internal affairs.

I feel it is necessary as in their evidence synopsis they have a paragraph of what DH supposedly said. He said they made the paragraph up taking unrelated sentences and putting them together to make a statement. It also contains a quite damning sentence that DH says he definitely did not say.
I would have thought if the investigation meeting forms part of the disciplinary hearing then they must supply it.

Has your dh heard from his union yet?

Get your evidence together (fact not opinion) and photocopy it. Do not leave the original with them.
It sounds as though you have a lot so put it in order in a file with a front content page. Have relevant page numbers easily found (stickys) on the edge.
E.g.. they may point out that a list came from xx. Dh reply that page 26 shows it was supposed to.

If they refuse to allow him to see relevant information then they can't use it. If they do its grounds for an appeal.

I always think of a disciplinary as preparation for an appeal and possible tribunal-mainly because in my experience managers don't have appropriate training in the process, think the law is irrelevant in their kingdom and do what they like.

E.g.. During your investigation what led you to believe they had done this?
Because he had been suspended.

If the worst happens they can be made to provide the documents that show they've lied-tribunals love that

Hope your ok. It's an incredibly difficult time. I really hope you are able to get rl support for yourself as well as your dh as well as some great advice- I'm afraid mine is a bit woolly.

I have been to 7 employment tribunals over the years. I cannot imagine they would support an employer if the way they have behaved is in any way accurate. Seems like legal advice may be appropriate.

Thanks for your support and advice. The union has been in touch and have been given copies of all communication.
The tribunal has been postponed. I don't want to go into too much detail but I feel as should say something as people have been helpful and supportive.
The company has been pressuring DH (and other employees) for years. It's a thoroughly nasty environment where people are constantly fearful of losing their jobs. It's a climate of don't raise your head, don't comment, don't ask for anything. Just one of the many reasons I know that he hasn't misused data, or done ANYTHING without full management consent.
If you're battered for long enough you think this is normal behaviour in business. DH is and has been scared of losing his job as we have a large, young family with only one wage.
Since the investigation meeting with internal affairs he has been very very worried for weeks, wondering what was going to happen next. He's actually been sick with worry.
This stuff about the hearing has pushed him over the edge. I think especially so when he can see that the "evidence" is manipulated. He thinks they've made their mind up already, I'm inclined to agree.
After a drink (I don't mean excessive, half a bottle of wine) he told me, in all seriousness, he would kill himself in a way which would be seen as an accident and that way he would provide for us financially.
It wasn't a cry for help, no dramas, just simple this is what I will do and you and the children will be ok.
I got him to the doctor and he's being dealt with but is very fragile.
I'm trying to hold it together but I'm drained, especially trying to keep it all away from the children.
Having seen the more extended "evidence" I'm even more angry. It's all so contradictory and completely subjective.
Oh, and just straightforward lies. There's a part in there where a manager says he had a conversation with DH. It didn't happen. Not just may have been misinterpreted. Just didn't happen. This is the manager who wouldn't answer his phone or return calls to DH. I think - know - that there's a lot of management covering their tracks right now.
It's absolutely disgraceful corporate behaviour.

Thanks for the update, all the best to you both, I hope your DH soon starts to see his way past this and is able to move on into a much more pleasant environment elsewhere

I know it's hard (have been there with dh) but try to detach yourself from what you are reading.

They are using a statement from a manager about a conversation. They need to provide evidence of the conversation or a witness to it (who your dh can question ). Ask for this evidence.

If they have none (most likely )he can raise it as hearsay in an appeal. How fair will the disciplinary be? What will an outside view be? This is what a tribunal will consider.

My dh was much the same as yours, he talked about the life insurance being there.
You will come through it.

he told me, in all seriousness, he would kill himself in a way which would be seen as an accident and that way he would provide for us financially

Oh, Rose!

That is awful - your poor DH - what a dreadful mental state he must be in; and poor you - what a huge burden to carry.

I know I don't need to tell you to try to talk him out of such a dreadful idea, but it might be worth reminding him that you and his children need HIM - not any cash the insurance will shell out.

Our neighbour's son took his own life on Sunday. He and his DP were separated but on good terms and had two children (7 and 3). I swear to God that if he could have seen the state it has left his parents in (he was only 30, but was a "bonus" baby - his dad is nearly 80, his two brothers in their late forties), the way it has left his two children, especially his 7 year old daughter, alternately sobbing and angry, lashing out and then just collapsing in tears, he would never have done it.

He had lost his job, but had a new relationship which was going well, thought the world of his children and had a wonderfully supportive family - like your poor DH, life just got too dark and insupportable.

I hope and pray that with your love and support, and now the union and his gp on his side, he will have the strength to go on. He will feel at the moment that he is a burden to the rest of the family and is dragging them down with him - everyone needs to reassure him that he is so much loved and that HE is the important thing in all of your lives.

It's important for you to get support, too - the burden on you is crippling at the moment. Do you have any friends or relatives close to you who can help you practically and emotionally. You both need to be surrounded with love just now.

Take it day by day - get each other through the meetings - try not to think about anything before you need to. My heart is aching for both of you. Stay strong - it will get better if you can weather it, but it is awful.