Stop being so bloody polite!

[AmeliaJack]

I love MNers, I think you are a fantastic group of people, smart, funny, courageous.

But AIBU to think that lots MNers need to stop being so bloody polite?

I keep reading threads where the OP's problem could be resolved if they just opened their mouths and said what they thought.

It's driving me up the wall!

Smart, intelligent women (and men) who end up being imposed upon by friends/families/colleagues and sometimes even complete strangers because they are unable to say no.

MNers doing childcare they don't want to for some piss taking friend because they don't want to upset them.

MNers who repeatedly host badly behaved playdates because they aren't prepared to pick up the phone can call the parents. Still haven't recovered from the MNer who said nothing when a child deliberately peed on the floor

MNers who have houseguests who long outstay their welcome, but won't give them notice.

MNers whose friends owe them money but won't ask for it back.

MNers who put up with being kissed/touched/hugged when they don't like it.

MNers who hate their DM/ MIL letting themselves into their house but won't address it/ask for the key back.

MNers whoses friends/sister/colleague is clearly out of mine but no says anything

I'm not talking about current threads. I've been on MN for years and I always seem to be saying the same things.

It is not better for you to be distressed/angry/uncomfortable/inconvenienced than to say what you think and risk an argument.

Your feelings are just as important and valuable as the other persons.

Assert yourself people of MN!

I know it's hard. It gets easier with practice.

I know it can be embarrassing. It gets easier if you esteem your own feelings above other people's.

I know conflict can be upsetting and difficult, but is it more upsetting and difficult than being continually used and abused?

Sometimes you need to have the argument/debate/discussion.

Saying "no" doesn't necessarily lead to arguments and drama. You can get away with a lot it you say it calmly, firmly and with a smile on your face. Practice in the mirror people.

We seem to be conditioned to avoid arguments at a detriment to our own well being. It makes me genuinely sad.

sorry.

Ah fuck off smarty pants 😉

I am RUBBISH at sayhg no, go off on all sorts of tangents, tie myself in knots and then eventually half heartedly make up a story and they say "oh sorry, forgot I'd asked you, I've arranged X to do it" or similar 😒🙄😂

For me, a big breakthrough lay in framing it slightly differently, as a three-way dynamic instead of a two-way one.

So instead of a binary: polite/rude, we have a triad: passive versus aggressive versus assertive.

You can be assertive of your own point of view, desires, wishes, wants without being disrespectful of others or rude to them. It's not a question of being polite or not. I've seen people who are really good at assertiveness be able to state what they want while simultaneously making the other person feel that they are seen and heard, with both parties coming away feeling that they have cleared the air.

More widely, I feel that at some point we said it was OK for people to behave in public in ways that were totally lacking in care and compassion - and even to take up political positions that are motored increasingly by hatred, jealousy, envy and a lack of feeling for anyone different. To me, that's not OK. I want to be able to stand against that, but to do so as an empowered person who can also state their own view in a way that demands space and a hearing.

MN massively inspired me to be more assertive.

I don't know why, but constantly seeing women like me who were too scared to stand up to relatives and colleagues made me realise that by being the same I wasn't been nice I was being a pushover.

The first few "confrontations" weren't easy but I'd say 80% of the time I stand up for myself people don't see it as confrontational at all, just that I'm setting boundaries. (Don't ask about when I stand up to my DM though...)

Socialisation. Women are not, and unfortunately girls are still not, in too many cases, brought up to be assertive in this way.

I end up being either passive, aggressive or a mixture of both , but assertive I rarely am, in real life. More than I used to be, so by the time I'm 70 I should be fine . I hope.

Saying 'no' to people, especially people you've being saying 'yes' to for ages, and in the knowledge you will getting little or no back up, is very very hard. Most of us wouldn't want to lose friends or family so just soldier on.

Also, schooling. In this country, unlike in Amercia where people are so much better at being politely confident, things like debating and public speaking aren't taught in schools. I really do think they should be, along with proper SPaG. Communicating well is the key to any kind of success. I can do well with the written word, but appallingly with the spoken.

I struggle to understand it too. Especially threads around people taking the piss about expecting unacceptable things from the OP.

Or - I don't want to attend X event. You're an adult! Excluding parental responsibilities or work obligations you don't HAVE to do anything. Don't go! You can politely explain why if you feel it's necessary but don't bloody good if you don't want to and it's causing so much angst you have started a thread about it.

I have to admit, Mumsnet has helped me grow a spine gain some confidence in similar situations that have been mentioned here.
You can stand up for yourself and be polite about it.
There are also situations where you don't need to be polite at all. Sometimes that's what it takes. I don't like it, but I don't like being taken advantage of a whole lot more!
A friend of mine is currently stuck looking after her sons best friend one afternoon a week. She has admitted she doesn't like the boy very much, he and her son wind each other up a lot and his general attitude to adults is quite bad. She didn't really want to do it, but got worn don by the guilt tripping - well that and the fact the mum decided it was happening anyway and told the school my friend would be picking up her son that day.
The first my friend knew was the school phoning up to ask why she'd not picked up the extra child!
I'd have gone mad at that point. But then thanks to this website in many ways, my social conditioning has been rather broken. To a point!

Amelia- I see you're in that thread about the guy invading that OP's personal space, did that thread trigger this. Because it's worth noting, given that this man in question has identified as non-binary, that challenging, in this set of circumstances, can very quickly lead to accusations of bigotry, intolerance and more, and I think that is what that OP is afraid of. Be aware that the NHS is now allowing men identifying as women onto women's wards and women who object are told they are being bigoted and they have to be shunted off to a side room or whatever. The NHS. Schools. The government. Corporations.

Unfortunately this is an area that is becoming harder and harder for women to stand up and be assertive in.

River actually no that thread didn't trigger this one. I've been thinking about starting this thread for months.

I fully understand that it's not easy and that sometimes it can feel complicated but often it's really really simple.

Just like in Round's thread if she use's ElsoethFlashman's excellent advice she could make her assertion funny and non threatening.

There's usually a fairly polite, non escalating way to make your point.

As you may have guessed I'm pretty assertive, but I wasn't always.

I've worked on it.

I'm pretty assertive but I haven't fallen out with any of my friends for more than 15 years.

I'm pretty assertive but I get on very well with my PIL.

River to follow up on your point about losing friends, I don't know how many times I've seen threads where the advice is for the OP to drop a friend because the OP can't bring herself to stand up for herself/ask for the money/say no.

Being assertive doesn't lose you friends, it just means that the Ines you have treat you properly.

because I'm sure that you gave an excellent career as a stand up ahead of you, perhaps a little more experience might be worthwhile.

We'll all come and cheer at your first gig.

Oh, I agree with you re friends, but I can see that if you don't have many and find it hard to make them, dropping one is a pretty big deal, even if you'd be better off without them.

I think your phrase is a good one when making friends in the first instance!

I would love to do some kind of proper ongoing assertiveness course, or public speaking or some such. I got sent on one at work years ago, it was just rubbish.

Apologies for bringing the other thread in, when I started reading it (after reading this) it made me think of this thread, and then I saw you were on it.

That's no problem River there are overlaps.

I think that public speaking is a lot like being assertive on a one to one basis: it's scary. Do it anyway.

Previous posters are right, women are often brought up not to make a fuss. Not to complain. Just to put up with stuff.

But we can choose.

Choose scary or embarrassing over doormat and downtrodden.

It's interesting. I am very very polite actually but I have no trouble saying no. I think the two things are utterly different. If I don't want to help or do something with someone I just refuse. Every day I refuse 2 or 3 things and I don't find it hard at all.

(I do loads of paid public speaking but always refuse unless the fee is large enough).

Me which is exactly the way to be. I think that lots of people think that asserting themselves is rude though, hence my thread title.

My mum has an amazing friend who can make saying no sound like she is doing the person she is turning down a favour. My mum used to mention this when I was younger but I didn't realise what a skill this was. Wish now I'd taken notes.
You are right assertiveness does not mean being rude or losing friends it is about respecting yourself. I need to get better at this. At work I'm pretty good it is just with friends/family I can struggle however the majority of my friends would never dream of taking the piss so I know if they ever ask for help it is an emergency /one off so I'm happy to help. However I get caught out by a family member every now and then because you never see the request coming.

"HOIK BIG GIRL KNICKERS UP " - not always possible - sometimes the elastic is dodgy and with the best will in the world they fall down again [hence nothing gets done].

I think polite is the wrong word. Being polite is good. Being spineless isn't.

I was looking for a deliberately provocative thread title Nenny

pip you're right sometimes our big girl kickers fall down. So we put on a fresh pair and keep trying. Practice makes perfect.

I need to say no more and apologise more than I should. Some of it is anxiety, some just I hate "making a fuss" after years of being told not to, so I am trying to train myself out of it. Being self employed gets treated as me doing bugger all, I'm at home so I must be available to do endless favours.

I said no to staying overnight looking after cousin's dc. Twice a week for less than a tenner after travel, all suggested like it was a favour since money is tight for me bloody cheek of it. Remembering how annoyed seeing MNers in that kind of position made me helped! Big girl pants firmly hoik'd.

YANBU.

I wish people would grow a back bone and stop being so scared of offending people.

Some people need a big old kick up the ass

I'm not sure if it's about having a backbone kiwi I think it's more often about understanding that they have a right to stand up for themselves.

Panda I think that's true - lots of people are raised not to make a fuss. My DM is very proud that I am so assertive, but she's incredibly uncomfortable being actually present while I do it, to the extent that she's apologised for me.

When I raised it later she didn't even recall that she'd done it - so ingrained is the reflex.

I say no to pretty much everything and I rarely ever ask, if ever. Especially to people who do nothing for others. I know a couple of people who will ask the most cheeky favours yet never do of offer to do anything for anyone else , ever.

I agree OP , I'm constantly bemused by threads of the free childcare , money lending and general liberty taking that goes on. Just say no!

I wish people would be more assertive but if they can't... channel Elsa and let it go. Pick one. You don't get to be pissed off if you didn't ask. Speak up or make your peace.

All the wanting people to be psychic on here makes me Ask, or suck it up. Your choice.