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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Cliff Richard and co should stop their awful campaign?

555 replies

PinkyOfPie · 17/10/2016 22:54

news.sky.com/story/sir-cliff-urged-to-drop-campaign-for-anonymity-for-sex-offence-suspects-10620627

In a nutshell Cliff Richard and other well known men have launched a campaign to grant anonymity to accused sexual offenders.

AIBU to think they should FOTTFSOF? Aside from it being a well known fact the other victims come forward when they see their abuser/rapist has been charged, there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest a 'false' accusation of a sex crime impacts a person more than a false accusation of any other crime. Its a horrible rape myth that damages victims.

Also the official stats false accusations for rape and sexual assault (of which around 35 people are convicted a year in the U.K.) are no higher than false accusations any other crime.

So why in gods name would those accused of sexual crimes ever get special treatment?

To think Cliff Richard and co should stop their awful campaign?
OP posts:
cricketqueen · 18/10/2016 16:06

Surely you could say 'don't just assume someone hasn't been falsely accused'.

It is innocent till proven guilty at the end of the day.

myownprivateidaho · 18/10/2016 16:13

Innocent until proven guilty and anonymity for those accused of certain crimes don't go together.
What happens then, people who are accused of crimes that don't carry anonymity are less innocent until proven guilty? Nope, doesn't work IMO.

Also not sure why people are attacking bluesky. She's perfectly correct that a reasonable belief in consent is a defence to rape.

myownprivateidaho · 18/10/2016 16:13

Reasonable being the key word!

sashh · 18/10/2016 16:54

If your husband or brother was falsely accused of rape (statistically , it's unlikely, I know) would you really consider that no more troubling than an accusation of fraud or property crime?

When you think of Neil and Christine Hamilton what do you think of first?

How about second and third?

Do you think the false rape allegation did them any real harm?

JackShit · 18/10/2016 18:10

YABU. My dear friend was falsely accused of rape. He was eventually PROVEN innocent and the 'victim' later admitted her lies. It destroyed his life. He killed himself.

BowieFan · 18/10/2016 18:16

Until the "no smoke without fire" mentality ends, there needs to be anonimity until charged.

I just don't like how accusers are automatically believed but the accused are presumed to be guilty unless they can prove otherwise.

I really recommend Paul Gambaccini's book. It will change your mind on this.

Northernparent68 · 18/10/2016 18:24

That graph is deliberately misleading.

yes it's true that there are more rape prosecutions than prosecutions for perverting the course of justice, but that is because to prosecute pervert the course of justice you have to prove the rape did not happen, which is exceptionally hard.
Additionally it's clear from the report the op cites that cps disfavour prosecutions for perverting the course of justice

Blueskyrain · 18/10/2016 19:14

Northern, I've explained all that, but people often only agree with something if it fits their theory for something.

We don't know the number of false allegations. We don't know the number of cases where what happened sounds different because of the different perspectives of the parties. These are all things we do not know, and can never know.

Blueskyrain · 18/10/2016 19:17

Franknsteen, I don't have the time to waste educating you on the law. If you don't believe that reasonable belief in consent is a defence, then fine - the law does. Perhaps you should research it. You'll find I'm right.

mycatwantstokillme1 · 18/10/2016 22:24

BowieFan & everyone else, I really recommend this book, it might make you change your mind on this as well.

www.amazon.co.uk/Never-Called-Rape-Robin-Warshaw/dp/0060925728

Maybe I should write a book about what I went through when I reported to the police who didn't protect me - so when the only choice I had was to protect myself, I got prosecuted myself. Happens to a lot of us - if you have a moment google Professor Mariane Hestor (Bristol Uni) research 'Who does what to whom?' Shows how women are disproportionatley arrested for 'dv' (when in fact often they're defending themselves). The irony, that you go to the authorities for protection, they don't protect you, you protect yourself, they prosecute you.

Now that's an experience you don't get over in a hurry, trust me.

mycatwantstokillme1 · 18/10/2016 22:27

PS BowieFan, accusers aren't always automatically believed. Hogan Howe at the beginning of this year even said he didn't think victims should automatically be believed. We aren't. Often police invstigations focus more on how to 'prove' we're lying rather than gather the evidence that shows we're telling the truth.

Kahli · 18/10/2016 22:29

I always thought the usual thing was not to release names until a suspect had been charged.
Probably I'm wrong (I usually am) but doesn't this apply to all crimes?

2kids2dogsnosense · 18/10/2016 22:33

I thought the same Kahli

Twogoats · 18/10/2016 22:41

Tbf cliff must have pissed off someone big to have been humiliated like that.

Many other big names have been questioned, but their names never make the press...

user1475440127 · 18/10/2016 23:01

His campaign only serves to put the focus back on him regarding the allegations. I do agree with anonymity until proven guilty.
I think he should do himself a favour in the light of all this and " come out". I know it's nobody's business but this might put an end to all this speculation,

BowieFan · 18/10/2016 23:03

And for anyone who wants to read a different viewpoint, from someone who was falsely accused and shows you how the police and press are in bed with each other: www.amazon.co.uk/Love-Paul-Gambaccini/dp/1849549117/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1476828114&sr=1-1&keywords=love+paul+gambaccini

I think rape and sexual abuse is fucking awful. More women should be believed BUT I think we need to believe both sides. We need to believe it's possible that either side is telling the truth and we need to look at cases objectively and let the facts speak for themselves. Nobody should have their name released before being charged. That is wrong.

11122aa · 18/10/2016 23:16

This campaign must be for anomylty to conviction for Nigel Evans involvement to make sense. He was charged and put on trial and found not guilty, a rule change would have only reduced the time he was publically known.

Bananabread123 · 18/10/2016 23:27

I agree with those who've said the graphic is very misleading... The black dot doesn't represent those cases where rape has been falsely claimed, but those cases where rape has been proven beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law to have been falsely claimed - a very hard thing to prove. A circle representing the actual number of false claims would be larger (by how much nobody can say.

In fact I'd argue the graph and the conclusions that have been drawn from it are downright dangerous... The argument seems to be that because the 'black circle' is so minute, virtually all reported rape is actual rape, so low in fact that we can drop the 'virtual' and for all practical purposes treat all rape claims as true, with the consequence that all men accused should be named because they're all guilty, and those that disagree are apologists for rapists who can FOTTFSOFOAFOSM.

This isn't justice...

A balance needs to be struck that recognises both sides, which is why i believe that the person should be named following charging (ie CPS has deemed evidence is credible enough to pursue a prosecution), not simply arrest on suspicion, and definitely not a mere investigation (as with CR). This would still allow for other women (if there are any) to come forward to strengthen a case before it went to trial. I actually think this should apply to all crimes.

JaniceBattersby · 19/10/2016 00:00

I've been a journalist for fourteen years. I have never named a defendant before charge (largely because we don't know heir name, and secondly because we are more vulnerable to libel laws than our peers at national newspapers) I'd say at our local crown court, we cover about one per cent of rape cases that come up each year due to having no court reporter anymore. This is the case for pretty much every local journalist I know.

I can count on one hand the number of celebrities who have been named publicly before charge and then found innocent. So, five men who have had their 'lives ruined'. Should the law change to protect these handful of privileged men? Because they are the only people a law change would benefit.

Our police forces need to be able to, in extenuating circumstances, appeal for victims of serial rapists to come forward by naming the man they believe to be involved. As I said above, they very rarely use this tool. I've never reported on a single case in my whole career.

And as for those people asking for anonymity until conviction: I'm pretty sure you have no idea how court reporting works.

We attend only the most serious rape cases. Maybe three every year, due to staffing. Should there be anonymity for the accused, we wouldn't attend any rape cases at all. It is impossible to report a case without naming either victim or defendant. It becomes 'a man raped a woman in a place that we can't name because it might identify the defendant or the victim etc etc.' And is just a complete nonsense. So editors will just not bother sending anyone to court and no women anywhere will ever see their attackers named, and there will be an end to the principle of open justice in rape cases - that justice is not only done, but it is also seen to be done. Adverse publicity is a huge deterrent for criminals, especially sex attackers.

For those people whose partners have been genuinely falsely accused, and heir names dragged through the mud, I'm sorry. But was it because they were named, before charge, in the local paper? Or was it idiots on Facebook who named them and called for compulsory castration etc? Because gagging the media would not stop these people on social media.

Only a more vigorous application of contempt of court law would stop the idiots who think it's fine to name those whom a court order says cannot be named (the Spalding murders, the Ched Evans case etc). If I deliberately named the Spalding murderers in my paper, the trial judge would probably send me to jail. But those who name em on FB, with a much wider audience, are simply given a small fine. I would support tougher sentences for people genuinely in contempt of court.

As for the OP, no, YANBU. The law should not be changed to protect five rich, privileged men.

WomanWithAltitude · 19/10/2016 00:03

Well said!

JaniceBattersby · 19/10/2016 00:05

Oh, and we go along on police raids all the time to drug houses and the homes of people suspected of violent crime. We film the armed police kicking the door in, and people being arrested. We are invited along to these events by the police. How many times do you think members of the public ring us to say we shouldn't go on raids and we shouldn't put these pictures in the paper? Never. In fact, we usually get about a thousand likes on FB for this kind of story.

But when it's Cliff bloody Richard, all of a sudden, filming raids is a fucking outrage, right?

JoffreyBaratheon · 19/10/2016 00:09

Agreed. It's too far in the defendants' favour, as it is and of all crimes, this must be one of the most difficult for victims to come forward.

I think these high profile men have been named because it gives the police and CPS the best chance of finding more evidence (and maybe other crimes). In the same way that they let suspects do tearful TV appeals - knowing they'll trip themselves up or, seeing them on TV, a new witness might have their memory jogged and come forward. There's enough of the system already protecting the wealthy and privileged, as Janice says.

The time line is they can't be charged until the CPS is satisfied they have enough evidence. So releasing their names may well help them be charged (if a crime has happened). That weighs the scales a bit more in the victim's favour and everything else in the legal system is stacked against victims in most crimes, as it is.

derxa · 19/10/2016 06:53

When you think of Neil and Christine Hamilton what do you think of first?

How about second and third?

Do you think the false rape allegation did them any real harm?
OMG This is dreadful. Neil and Christine Hamilton are two of the most thick skinned brazen people on earth. They're not like ordinary people who care what people think of them. I'm genuinely shocked.

SemiNormal · 19/10/2016 06:59

I was actually interested in what you had to say until In fact, we usually get about a thousand likes on FB for this kind of story. Grin

chewingawasp · 19/10/2016 07:12

I see that Cliff has just announced that there is a Loose Women 'special' on him coming up soon. No doubt Gloria will be voicing her opinions Hmm