AIBU to not want brothels legalised?

[RoseanneDownton]

A lot of people aren't aware that our government is currently considering changing the laws on prostitution so that it will be legal to set up huge brothels.

They did this in Germany, not envisaging that they would end up with chains of 'megabrothels' in which 400,000 girls are needed to meet the demand. These poor girls are awfully degraded and have little control over anything. They are obliged to accept any man and do anything he wants, or get excluded by the owner. The majority have to be lured (or worse!) from other countries, as there aren't enough German women to 'service' the ever-increasing numbers of 'customers'.

Surely I am not the only MumsNetter who can't bear the thought of my daughters and grand-daughters being recruited into such places once they are legal in the UK. The thought of them having to go with an endless stream of strange, random men off the street really turns my stomach.

It's obvious to me that naive young girls will be persuaded that this is an 'easy way' to pay their student fees, get a deposit for a flat etc.

The other thing is, women have been fighting for equality for over 100 years, and this feels like a huge step backwards. I don't see how we can ever persuade men to respect women as equals when they can buy and sell us for sexual use.

It seems to me that the girls and women who will end up in the brothels are going to be the vulnerable and the desperate. It just seems like a way for men to exploit this vulnerability for their own selfish ends, and that's wrong.

Most ordinary folk don't think prostitution is any of their business, and to be honest, if it's just a 'discreet housewife' seeing a few 'gentlemen friends', I'm not bothered, either. But this national lack of interest means that those who want to open big brothels here are currently able to put a lot of pressure on the government behind our backs.

AIBU to not want brothels legalised, but to want to leave the law as it is?

It certainly does not work brilliantly in Nevada.

The current legislation is pointless, endangering women and men for no good reason.

Why the fuck would I give a shit if male punters are in danger? They are the danger. Also a good reason might be sending a societal message that women are not commodities to be wanked in for a tenner. Didn't you are the figures about how legalisation creates greater demand even on the streets?

Shining what I mean is that we treat peoples bodies as inviolable and not as something that can be bought and sold legally. Other countries don't. If the basic principle is that you can't buy the use of someone's bodily functions, that principle should extend to sex work.

I dont really see how we can stop people exchanging sex for money, it's impossible to police

while there is a demand from men for more sexual gratification than is freely given to them there will always be women prepared to satisfy that demand in return for cash.

I am quite prepared to accept that there are some women for whom providing sex feels like just a job and who are totally unfazed by sex with a wide range of unfamiliar men.

The more sex work is seen as morally repugnant the higher will be the fee's commanded by women who are ok with it.

I feel horrified at the idea of German style brothels and I feel that men who use prostitutes are distinctly unsavoury.

I dont know what the answer is

Why do you feel the OP is "propaganda", Doyoufeel? She's just expressing an opinion, exactly as you are. I'm not sure why you'd wish to disregard the German experience of legalisation of prostitution. It's certainly relevant to the point here, not "out of context". I for one do not want to see that in the Uk. Why don't you look at the bigger picture? Prostitution is damaging to women.

YANBU OP. Legalising brothels won't solve a problem, it will create more. Nobody who has a genuine choice in the matter would want to work at a brothel, let's be honest. There are a few, who choose to be sex workers (sex therapists etc) but they usually have the funds to set up and run things on their terms and are doing it consciously and willingly, and without it being their only option of making money to survive. World of difference.

Legalising brothels just means more of them and the encouragement of more workers for them, but without the fear of the law. This means that more disadvantaged women could be forced into working there and because they are "legal" there's not a damn thing the police can do about it, or the rats that own and run it. The owners could make sure things look compliant but in reality they have a load of scared, disadvantaged girls who aren't exactly going to complain to anyone if they don't get everything they are legally entitled to.

How is that better?

Has anyone actually spoken to a sex worker about this? All the one's I know are very much in support of it and say that it will make things much safer for them.

mega brothels provide opportunities for the owners to use women as pieces of equipment which they can use and control to extract profit from the punters
the owners will be raking it in
it wont be women exchanging sexual services for money, it'll be men using women to extract money from other men

Shining exactly! So true. When was the last time there was brothel of men with a queue of women waiting, and a woman on the door ordering the male workers around?

Great thread, OP, and YANBU. I for one was not aware of the government's activities in this area. It's a shame raestory left the thread - interesting posts.

I think legalised brothels are an excellent idea. It would mean the women who genuinely want to do the job (and there are some) would be able to do so safely and comfortably. It works brilliantly in Nevada. Lovely establishments, intelligent women and customers have to have their details kept securely on file in case of issues. Every girl is regularly checked for STIs and has mental health checks too. I don't see why we can't have something similar.

This was sarcasm, Bowie, right?

women typically dont need to pay for casual sex....there are hoards of slavering men offering it for free and very few takers even then

I for one was not aware of the government's activities in this area

That's because the government is not currently doing anything. I think the OP is based on a report by a Commons inquiry in July that recommended legalising brothels and soliciting. You can see a report in the Guardian on this here. The government has to consider this report - that's how Parliament works. However, I have not seen anything that suggests they intend to act on it.

poison

I think the poster was referring to male prostitutes

Restless - yes I have, at the street worker end of the market. Groomed into it under age by pimps offering them the illusion of a relationship and drugs. Not surprisingly because these women are ones whom the education system and social supportnnetwork have failed, they mostly lack the confidence and articulacy to make their voices heard. I know there are a lucky few up the top end of the market who say they enjoy their lifestyle - but that for me is outweighed by the damage done to society as a whole by allowing women to be treated as commodities rather than full human beings.

Yanbu. Before becoming a parent I couldn't see the harm if done well. But now theres no fucking way I'd be happy with my son or daughter sucking off desperate perverts for money.
Lifestyle choice my arse

I too have spoken to sex workers - one who was pimped by her abusive parents to their friends and now though she's out her life is crippled by PTSD.
The figures for PTSD in sex workers is higher than in army vets ! ! !
How can anyone say indoor prostitution is safer ?
It's not now is it - more than 50 women have been murdered under legalised prostitution in Germany.
But anyway prostitution as I see it is violence.
It's women having sex they don't freely want - isn't this what we call rape ?
Also imagine having your anus, vagina and mouth usually brutally penetrated repeatedly day after day !
This is violence and absolutely not like other work !
And we abolished race slavery so why in the 21st century are we considering this as a solution to women's poverty. ?
Isn't economic equality the answer ?

Yanbu I totally agree op.

Restless - yes I have, at the street worker end of the market. Groomed into it under age by pimps offering them the illusion of a relationship and drugs. Not surprisingly because these women are ones whom the education system and social supportnnetwork have failed, they mostly lack the confidence and articulacy to make their voices heard. I know there are a lucky few up the top end of the market who say they enjoy their lifestyle - but that for me is outweighed by the damage done to society as a whole by allowing women to be treated as commodities rather than full human beings.

Exactly; when the HASC conducted their report they talked to Brook Magnanti and Paris Lees for evidence, both of whom were prostitutes for a very short time whilst studying, haven't worked in a long time and are in the exceptionally rare circumstance of having managed to make a career off of the back of it. Exceptionally rare. Paris Lees even said that being a prostitute helped her through Uni which helped her 'get were she is today' which is a disgusting thing to say, seeing as elsewhere she has implied heavily tat buying sex is 'not good'. Basically, it doesn't matter what happens to the vast majority, she is fine so whats the problem???

The sex industry is mostly predicated on working class women, migrant women, and women from the care system. Lots of them start in their late teens and twenties and manage to make reasonable amounts per hour, but the longer they stay in the sex industry their price falls and so too do their options of where they work. So many end up in the cheapest brothels earning a hamster wheel living which is then just 'getting by'.

When I worked in Geneva, legal Geneva, the brothels only housed the youngest, slimmest women. Walking around Soho I saw older, larger women having to stand on the street often being watched over by young pimps in groups on the opposite side. Its a sad trajectory.

And that is before you get to trafficked women and the 'global trade in women and children' stuff.

Lessthanaballpark
I think you misunderstood my point. I am aware of the radfem position on this but there are many lib fems who support the prostitution as if it was part of a universal right to choose.

I see that Manhowdy refuses to answer my question.

Here it is again.

You think prostitution is safe in brothels and flats and will be safer if legalised.

In Holland and Germany it's legal, and yet STILL not safe, because at some point the woman is going to be left alone with a random strange man who might:

1. pull off a condom when she's not looking
2. become violent and do huge damage before she can cry for help
3. give her an STI the day after the clinic gave her a monthly check up

How do you plan to remove those dangers?

There seems to be an illusion that legalisation will merely help the one-woman, self employed, independent escort to work unhassled.

But brothels will inevitably convert that into a massive, male-run industry which will use thousands of "barely legal" girls, then spit them out once they are "too old" or "used up"--- which might be only 25, and replace them with thousands more school leavers.

As Shining said upthread

it wont be women exchanging sexual services for money, it'll be men using women to extract money from other men

^ this is what horrifies me about it. This isn't about the small, privileged group of glamorous independents who say they enjoy it. They can carry on just as they are, for all I care.

Sorry I haven't read the entire thread as I'm in a bit of a rush but since we're on the subject (I don't mean to hijack the thread) of brothels I have a question for anyone more clued up on the subject.
How many, if any at all, male brothels is there in comparison to female brothels?
And if my assumption that it's incomparable is right what do you think that says about the society and/or the message this portrays?

BTW I agree with the OP, think about the issues women can still face in your normal 9-5 jobs, I can't begin to imagine what will really go on behind closed doors of these "legal" establishments. I can't help but think that for every woman that enjoys that sort of work there's at least 5 who are just stuck in it. I also can't help but think that men would go about the whole concept a lot differently if it was their gender that dominated the field of sex work.

it wont be individual sexually liberated women in charge of their lives charging a high fee for 'personal services'
it will be men hiring out women for other men to use, they will take advantage of economies of scale, recruit/import large numbers of women drive down prices and rent them out cheaply to attract as many punters as possible and make more profit.

How many, if any at all, male brothels is there in comparison to female brothels?
male prostitutes would only be providing services to other men, there is no market for men who want to sell sex to women

Punters will be drooling with pleasure at the though of UK mega brothels
They'll be able to afford a different 'barely legal' girl nearly every night of the week
It'll be like a giant sweetshop, everything they want all under one roof

On the question of 'safer indoors' - I was read that women in brothels run by pimps are not allowed which client to choose !
That in New Zealand they are fined if they refuse a client !
Also the men usually do stuff to them that they have not agreed to.
They say that on the streets they can at least refuse a man if they think he looks dodgy and they can negotiate their own price somewhat.
In the brothels the pumps set the price - in German mega brothels the pimps offer 'BogOff'' special deals 'Screw as many as you want in an hour' !
And the prices are set low to compete with other mega brothels and the pimps take most of the money anyway !
Plus the women can't leave because they have criminal records and are threatened by brothel heavies - raped, brutally beaten etc !