To think vanity sizing is not just about people being fatter

[goddessoftheharvest]

Not really a taat- I've been thinking about this every time it pops up on MN

Any thread about weight, there's always comments about how vintage size 12s were tiny, and the equivalent today would be a size 16. This serves to point out how people are getting gradually fatter without really noticing.

Aibu to think that might be a bit simplistic?

People nowadays have access to almost unlimited junk, yes, but they also have access to affordable vitamins, milk etc

My great granny was tiny, but she was raised on bread and tea in a slum with 8 siblings, two of them had rickets, and she was riddled with arthritis from a relatively young age

My gran (her daughter) had a marginally better upbringing, but not much- less children, better housing, more to go round, but still a restricted diet, no heating etc. She is a little taller than my great granny, about 5'3. Much healthier too, as she has had access to better food and living conditions from young adulthood

My mum is 5'4, and although she's still small, she's not as noticeably tiny as the other women in the family. Was still very poor through her childhood at times

I have had access to better food and housing etc than any of them, and I am much bigger. I am 5'6 and even at 7 stone I couldn't fit into some of my mum's clothes because my shoulders are so broad

My dad's family were poor, but they were country people. They got fresh air, sunlight, grew their own vegetables, liberated the occasional pheasant. Anecdotally they all seemed a bit taller/longer lived than the town lot

Also I see loads of old photos where the women are short, but quite round/stocky. So not necessarily fat, but not sylph like size 8 either

So aibu to think it's probably down to better nutrition and lifestyle as well? I see similar with friends my age too. We are all taller than our older female relatives. One of my friends is a power lifter and she would never fit into vintage clothes, but she is super healthy and just pure muscle- that would have been unusual back then too

I also work in a school and completely agree. Children are much taller, stronger and fitter.

There are more overweight children, also, but I would say overwhelmingly that children are just much taller now.

I would be really interested to see the obesity crisis broken down into geographical areas and socioeconomic groups to see if this accounts for the massive gap between what we're being told is happening and what we see happening in our individual areas.

Scary can you point me to the studies that show that children are getting fitter please ? Everything I've read suggests the opposite - activity levels dropping etc.

When i was at primary school in the very early 80s there was no homework. Kids often went out to play straight after school.

Now more primary kids get homework with the threat of loss of "golden time" if it isnt completed.

I have a theory about certain posters who bang on about vanity sizing and how certain sizes are fat etc. What they are really hoping is to drive other women to comfort eat and gain weight thus eliminating possible competition.

Wow Helena do you really believe that, just because they hold that opinion?

And 'dating pool'? No everyone here is single, so I should imagine it's been many years since a lot of Mumsnetters went dating.

Until 2006, all clothing sizes were based on measurements taken just after the war when rationing was still in place. Despite eating healthily during the war, food was rationed enough to affect body size

In 2006 or thereabouts, the apparel trade commissioned new sizing a based on current measurements of the nation's population. People were both much bigger AND taller. I think this is where 'vanity' sizing started. However, it wasn't vanity sizing as such, it was just readjusting measurements to a better nourished population.

I spent 5 years as a pattern cutter. Whenever sizes were graded (or made into a set of different sizes) each larger size was longer than the previous size. It is a basic rule of thumb when pattern drafting/ producing clothing, that each increase in size means adding more on the length.

Now, people will probably come on and have a go😀 But these as the facts as l clearly remember them.

Also, in terms of anthropometric data, each generation is taller than their parents. I realise this may end at some point in our evolution, obviously😀
but at the moment this is what's happening.

Worra. Im talking subconciously. There are far too many people here spouting the same thing for it to be a coincidence.

I doubt the girls at school who were telling the only slightly overweight girls they were fat were doing it to be helpful. Some of them do carry the Mean Girls trope over into adulthood.

barbarian in my experience, the children I see are all ridiculously sporty- but I teach in an affluent area, at a school that is known for its sporting success (thus must attract more sporty children, the children that attend are more likely to pick up and stick to a sport) and has fantastic sporting facilities near by (therefore attracting people to the area who care about sport and would encourage it in their children).

This is what I mean when I say what I see doesn't match what we're being told is happening.

On a population level, we're definitely more overweight. Most people aren't actually obese - just overweight.

But we've always come in all shapes and sizes.

I find it fascinating looking at pictures of a young Queen Elizabeth, who's easily at least as slim as the Duchess of Cambridge. I don't believe she came in for any flack for being so slim.

YY Dowager Im well aware it works the other way too. But back then women didnt have as many rights like we do now.

I dont find it a coincidence that as women have gained more rights the pressure on women about how they should look has increased.

If that photo was taken in the early 50's, late 40's, women still wore corsets then as Diors New Look had appeared, and that frock the queen is wearing looks to be of that period.

Also, as l said, rationing was still in place at that time, so everybody was slimmer

People are fatter but they're also taller and wider, so even our skeletons are bigger than they would've been a few decades ago. We are fatter than we are taller, iyswim, but that doesn't remove the fact that we're simply larger in general and would be even if we all had BMIs of 20.

And wrt nutrition, while it's true that our diet now isn't necessarily better than it was 40 years ago, there were a significant proportion of adults 40 years ago who had grown up during eras of very poor diet and widespread malnutrition. The adult population in the mid 70s would primarily have grown up before WW2, just, ie in the era where it was common for children not to have proper nourishment when growing. It would be ludicrous to think that didn't make a difference to average adult sizes.

Corsets can only do so much, being as that they pull in and define the waist! She was clearly a very slim woman.

I dont find it a coincidence that as women have gained more rights the pressure on women about how they should look has increased.

Don't deny this at all. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Helena what do you mean by 'spouting'?

There are women here who believe that vanity sizing is a problem. There are also women here who will often say a certain size means they think someone is fat, given that person's height/frame etc.

Not everyone will agree with them, but I don't think it's right to assume they have some sort of ulterior motive, whether subconsciously or not.

There are also some posters who will state every reason known to mankind, why they feel it's never the responsibility of overweight people to keep their own weight and the weight of their DC in check.

Are we to assume they're 'spouting' their opinions to keep everyone fat, because they too are fat and they don't want others to start losing weight?

Personally, I don't think they have an ulterior motive either.

Worra Some maybe but they are not all doing it for altruistic reasons out of the goodness of their hearts.

I did some research into vanity sizing, the waists of our clothes have got bigger but the hip and bust measurements have not really, essentially our clothes are less curvy. I am a size 10 these days, but have a small waist, large hips and i tried on some of my mums size 10 clothes from the 70s 80s and they fitted perfectly. Im not sure vanity sizing is quite as extreme as mn always makes it out. I think its often used as a way to prove posters aren't actually thin, in the same way as "people are getting larger".

I dont think its as simple as that, yes our averages are increasing but I think our extremes have increased too, so thats probably skewing the figures. Im not convinced what we see as a "slim woman" has actually increased that much. That picture of queen Elizabeth looks like she's wearing a corset, and also still looks bigger than Kate.
Im also sat here next to my grandmother who is quite obviously a lot smaller than me, her feet are a 3 to my 7, but very noticeable is our shoulders are a lot different, mine are a lot wider. I am not fat, my ribs and hips are both quite visible but she is obviously a lot smaller than me, despite perhaps not having much less fat than me. I think that we definitely have got bigger frames too.
I think the whole thing is much more complex than the usual mn speil which comes out on every weight related thread. I have noticed that on mn, its very easy to be fat but almost impossible for someone to be too thin.

Before pregnancy I was a size 12/14 in modern high Street shops. I found a bag of clothes in my mums loft from about 15 years ago when I was much much thinner. Mostly size 12. I was 3 stone lighter. So i think sizing has changed even in more recent years.

Saying that, I took a pair of size 14 work trousers back to next as they hung off my hips. I couldn't get the 12 done up.

If you benchmark the uk against some other European countries - eastern and parts of France, Italy and Spain you can really see the size difference.
Obviously they will all catch up with us but it is striking how much slimmer many of the women are. And not noticing shorter.

To be fair Helena I don't think anyone could ever say that everyone on a chat forum does everything out of the goodness of their own hearts.

But that works for both sides of the weight discussions, surely?

I just think it's bit off to kind of dismiss people who believe vanity sizing is a problem, or who for example believe that yes, being a size 12/14 is likely to make someone overweight, if for example they're only 5 feet tall...and to suggest they only say that to be mean.

"Women's waist sizes have gone up by x inches" is a standard Daily Mail article, i.e. stick to beat women with, in amongst pictures of skinny models.

The only women I know who maintain slender frames, bar one who does a lot of exercise and is always "on the go", significantly undereat, skipping meals and so on. Some are naturally slim, but achieving the "Western ideal" tends to necessitate putting women on a forever diet.

Of course, you'll get women replying to this with their weight, clothes size and the food they eat (and I'll probably get a lecture about "unnecessary snacking", "processed foods" and "full of sugar") as every thread seems to attract those. I suffered an eating disorder in my teens and the ED forums sounded much the same as those comments, endless lists of weights, inches, meals eaten.

As with anything, extremes are rarely healthy. Obsession with the label in your trousers is a waste of life. Having a go at larger women (most of whom are fully aware of the pressures on them to get skinny and therefore "attractive") is never excusable, but it's rampant on MN sadly.

Your points about changes in frame/height are probably well made. My aunt grew up with a terrible eating disorder, constantly fluctuating from a skinny 8 to a sporty 10. I remember as a child I knew when she was bad because I could see her hip bones over the top of her skirt and she looked miserable. Nowadays she's a personal trainer and has an amazing body, but she'd never fit into a size 8. Which is fine, that's just her.

You will come across some women who think "anyone SHOULD be an 8 if they were just less greedy", which is just thinly-veiled ED talk.

Oh, and as for the European comparisons.. I spent some time looking after European students aged 18 or so. The girls spent most of their free time in the gym and ate about one meal a day. One particular girl would boil a single egg at the same time every day and eat it, then nibble on carrot sticks.

They were slim, and by Western standards very pretty. But healthy, I'm not so sure.

Japanese students seemed to manage better, eating big bowls of ramen and so on. They were small, but not bony looking.

Vanity sizing is a total pain, I'm BMI 20, 5ft6, 28 inch waist. My local Supermarkets don't stock any bras under a 32" back, their size 10 or small has a 30 to 32 inch waist, finding an xs is almost impossible but I'm not extra small! My skinny jeans from new look are a size 6! Only 3 years ago they were size 8 I have not changed size in that time!
I am a normal size for my height but am struggling to find reasonably priced clothes to fit my size. Why should o have to pay higher prices just to find clothes that fit!

Agree with Worra

HelenaDove, honestly, I think you bang your drum very often, on any thread you'll talk about your weight loss. It sounds as if it hasn't been an altogether positive experience for you and if that's the case, I'm really sorry. I think perhaps it's had a profound affect on the way you react to normal forum discussions on size, fat and losing weight. Nothing that's been posted is personal to you or anybody else (that I can see) so please don't make it into some kind of insult aimed at you.

It's unfair of you to corral posters with a different viewpoint to yours and lump them into a 'don't want more women to compete in the dating pool' pot. As Worra said, many of us are not dating now. Some men like larger women anyway, some like smaller ones. It's always been the case. Different strokes for different folks.

Vanity sizing is a total pain, I'm BMI 20, 5ft6, 28 inch waist. My local Supermarkets don't stock any bras under a 32" back, their size 10 or small has a 30 to 32 inch waist, finding an xs is almost impossible but I'm not extra small! My skinny jeans from new look are a size 6! Only 3 years ago they were size 8 I have not changed size in that time!
I am a normal size for my height but am struggling to find reasonably priced clothes to fit my size. Why should o have to pay higher prices just to find clothes that fit!

I'm 3 stone heavier than I was at 18, yet only one size larger. I have dressmaking patterns from the mid 80s and the measurements are truly horrifying to modern eyes. I'm a size 14 but a size 22 according to the patterns!