8yo girls must wear shorts under skirts...

[MyFirstMyLastMyEverythingBagel]

... In order to play on the bars in the school playground?!
My 8yo DD came home from school yesterday upset as she wasn't allowed to play on them - the teacher had said she needed to have shorts on as the boys would see her knickers.
I'm really upset by this, she is 8 years old and has a life time ahead of her to be worrying about modesty/body image without the school instilling it in her at 8. We've had a lovely summer, much of it spent splashing in the river / sea, DD totally in self aware in her knickers and a t shirt.
I'm actually pretty cross and plan to speak to the head about it, but want to know if iabu? How would you feel about it? My child is a child and I don't feel she should be made to feel self conscious about a brief knicker flash when she is playing.

the thing that shall be hidden

I think lots of people mistake their own subjective view for the objective truth.

But Slarti what is the objective truth on this? Please enlighten. Or even your subjective view? Or are you merely on this thread to pour scorn everyone else's?

Do let us know.

Cabrinha It restricts them because the school insist on skirts, so the problem is uniform. However, for some PPs the idea of covering one thing is OK while covering another is wrong. That's what I'm questioning.

Hillfarmer Well as I said earlier it's all subjective, I don't think there is an objective truth. Also I haven't poured scorn on anyone or their views, but I do think it's an interesting subject (pun intended) and that it's perfectly fine to question why we think what we do.

I really don't get the logic of this.
You have to wear something to cover up the body.
And then you have to wear something to cover up the something that covers up the body!

What next?
Something to cover up the something to cover up the something?

All the girls at our local junior school tend to decide to wear them anyway.

however, if it were a school policy, and the school didn't allow shorts as uniform anyway, I'd be fucking furious. And very vocal.

This is annoying for all the reasons stated but also because it is blaming boys for doing something they haven't even done. My DS would not look or be interested.

They want to play. Not stare at girls in their pants. Because, you know, I haven't let them become sexualised. Just because they are boys doesn't mean they are Rapists-in-waiting.

Fucking offensive all round. Also, as someone else said - they change for PE in the same classroom!

Hillfarmer Well as I said earlier it's all subjective, I don't think there is an objective truth. Also I haven't poured scorn on anyone or their views, but I do think it's an interesting subject (pun intended) and that it's perfectly fine to question why we think what we do.

Yes, but you could add that comment onto every single thread on these boards without actually adding anything. Stating the bleedin' obvious is not exactly enlightening. Most people on 'Talk' will understand that everything is subjective. It's a given. It's all opinion. So what's the point of your contributions? My subjective view is that your contributions add nothing to the debate. You can go 'meta' and think that you are making a sophisticated point, whilst making no point at all.

I wish I had been allowed to wear shorts under my dresses when I was in junior school. I absolutely hated it when my knickers were on show.
I don't see any problem with this, though personally I think girls should wear trousers/shorts for school. I wouldn't have sent my daughter to a school that didn't allow her to wear trousers.

Noeffing the problem is that people are being told they MUST wear shorts under skirts.

Not that they can't if they want to.

Surely that's obvious.

Hill I was engaging with PPs and questioning why they think it's Ok to ask girls to cover one thing but not ok (and indicative of a whole host of misogynistic views and practices) to ask them to cover something else. Personally I think that's a valid and interesting discussion but of course you're entitled to disagree.

Ironic though that you think my posts contribute nothing when your contributions are all about my contributions! And you accuse me of "pouring scorn" over other people's views (when I merely questioned them) when it seems that's all you're doing to me. If you don't like my contributions just ignore them and don't quote me. This is just dragging it OT.

Hi Slarti - call me old fashioned, but I do want to know what your opinion is. Tantalisingly, you're teasing us by referring to 'a whole host of misogynistic views and practices'. But it feels as if you are being deliberately opaque. Can you not just tell us all where you actually stand on pants?

Also - perhaps you haven't RTFT - my full and frank response to the OP is upthread. Cheers!

(Ends hi-jack)

Still not a problem to me, violetbam.

Noeffing the point is that it's all a part of girls being expected to police their behaviour and clothing in the face of expected bad behaviour from boys. For me, that's a direct line to victim blaming and 'she asked for it'. Children being taught this at school is awful.

Obviously, choosing to do this in the absence of any teasing or being made to feel self conscious in any way is a different matter.

Oh, and as always on these threads, not everyone can choose the school their DC attend.

Urgh I don't even need to read the entire thread because my blood is already boiling.
YANBU, YANBU, YANBU!

This is so fucking ridiculous. If shorts are to cover "private" things then what the bloody hell are knickers for?

YANBU

Go to the school and say what BossWitch said, minus the part about Christ's bike

This is really sad, and says a lot more about the minds of people who insist on shorts for such tiny girls; it should be those who are ogling or behaving inappropriately who need to have their actions monitored. Once girls are approaching the end of junior school, and many are maturing fast, then shorts are good. Everyone had to change in the classroom for PE at my junior school, and I can remember suddenly feeling that I didn't want to take my top off and put on a PE top with anyone else around; last year of junior school, skinny little 11 year old, but even so it felt 'wrong'. Can't remember thinking anything of the sort when I was 5,6,7 - and neither should these girls who were toddlers just a couple of years ago. .

When I was a little girl in America all the girls at my primary school wore thin gym shorts under their skirts. No one made us do it, but we felt more comfortable doing cartwheels without showing what are after all supposed to be undergarments. I don't see anything wrong with teaching children to keep what's inside their clothes private. In this day and age that seems like sensible child-protection. I don't disagree that pants are modest enough, but I think that is a subjective view not shared by everyone. I do, however, have a big problem with skirts and dresses as school uniforms. Giving girls a uniform that may make some of them uncomfortable about doing cartwheels is outrageous. It sends an ugly message that their physical capability is not valued the way a boy's is. I would be as horrified as you are if someone shamed my young daughter for showing her knickers, and I think you have a case to complain about them upsetting your daughter by creating this rule. But the better solution is for girls and boys to have the same uniform. Trousers for winter and shorts for summer for everyone. Why reinforce gender roles with the school uniform? Why send the message that girls and boys are different? And for the children who don't fit neatly into traditional gender norms, a unisex uniform would be one less problem for them to cope with.

Why send the message that girls and boys are different?

Because they are?

Dogcatred - totally agree. We seem to be reverting back to Victorian levels of modesty these days. When I was 8 years old,nobody thought anything of an 8 year old girl showing her knickers whilst playing on the bars. As usual,it's the old story of targeting the girls and making THEM modify THEIR behaviour rather than tackling any boys that may be behaving inappropriately. And also what pleasemothermay1 said - no we're not in friggin Iran. I sometimes get the impression that the powers-that-be are pandering to the rules of certain religions.

If the problem is really children sneakily taking photos of each other on camera phones:

a) how can teachers allow children of both sexes to change in the same room- surely this gives prime opportunities?

b) does anyone really imagine that bullying camera behaviour will magically stop if all little girls cover their knickers? seriously?

No, just, no!

Only can really reiterate what's been said already. Ugh!

Stop telling women and girls what to wear.

YANBU at all!
Would a parent take their dd to the park wearing shorts underneath her skirt?! No.
Would a parent even consider that a 'pervert' might catch a glimpse of her pants while playing? No.
Knickers are designed precisely to cover the private area, at 8 yo (and in fact any age) it is not a female's job to cover herself so that boys/men/perverts aren't 'tempted' by her.
I cannot see any reason for this kind of extreme 'modesty' being prescribed by schools.
If a child asks to wear shorts under her skirt I would suggest that the school need to tackle any teasing/peer pressure that precipitated the request. I don't think a child would request it if there wasn't some sort of shaming going on. Hopefully that shaming is not validated by teachers insisting that girls should cover up so boys don't tease them. Childen should be learning to respect one another.
women and girls do not have to dress like they're in a nunnery. It makes me think of the old 'she was asking for it, dressed like that' response to rape back in the bad old days.

I'd be fuming, this is utter bollocks.

Who remembers tucking yr dress into the leg of yr knickers?
We had PE knickers to go on top of yr day knickers, we didn't think anything of it, it was just uniform, everyone wore them.
I think wearing shorts is a good idea, at that age, girls are perpetually upside down, they even sit on the grass ungainly!!
It amazes me on here, that one minute most people would be telling their DC to cover their nether regions, the next it's ok to flash at all and sundry??!!
One rule is better for all occasions.