Clashes with daughter over 11+ test

[monkeytree]

I'm struggling with my (only just) 10 year old daughter and preparing for the 11+ exam.We have 3 or 4 grammar schools in this area that potentially girls can get into so roughly 430 spaces for girls. I was told that my 10 year old dd does stand a chance of passing the 11+ if she does some prep work for it. DD is one of the youngest in the class and is borderline so we decided to follow advice, get some practice papers (dd has a tutor for maths) and do some work towards it. I know it is a controversial subject preparing for the 11+ test and some people don't believe in it but I think it would be difficult for any child to sit it straight off without seeing a practice paper first. So I have asked dd to do 20 mins to 30 mins in the morning maths/english/grammar etc and another 20 mins in the evening (lighter more fun stuff) but still working on increasing word knowledge etc.

Apparently dd says she hates me for putting pressure on her to pass the 11+. I have reassured her several times that my love for her won't change whatever the outcome but I might as well be the devil. The thing is, I know that if I didn't try and support dd, I would have big regrets - what if we'd just done this or that kind of thoughts and I don't want any regrets on my part. Then I feel guilty because she creates such a fuss - delays doing the work (she is steadily improving all the time), generally messes about and would rather stare at her tablet, tv etc. I know it's a lot to ask but my thoughts are along the lines of this is just for a few weeks (4 now) and is it really such a big deal in the long run. I get frustrated with dd's lack of maturity about all of this but can understand she would rather play etc. I have made sure she has done lot's of lovely things too over the holidays - she's out now playing with friends. In amongst all of this I have had to deal with occupying my nearly 3 year old (dh works during the day) and it has been a real juggling act trying to satisfy both of them and give dd1 quality time etc. DD's attitude has just not helped - despite being promised something she very much wants if she shows the right attitude and effort (not based on performance) but I can't help but think her attitude has been awful at times and I am questioning whether she lacks maturity or whether I'm asking too much of her. I would not be putting her through this if she did not stand a chance and the spin off from this will be that her grammar and maths will have improved anyway in time for the year 6 sats. I can honestly say this has been an awful experience although I have enjoyed working with dd very much when she is willing to learn and I have learnt a lot too. Anyone else had similar experiences?

Both my DDs did the 11+ and are at grammar school. They veered between wanting to go to the school and wanting to take the easy option of not doing the work! I think if I had said oh don't bother they'd have been happy but I never wanted either to turn round at a later date and blame me for not putting them in for it (as DH does with his parents!). Because the exam is literally on top of them going back to school in September unfortunately you do need to do a bit of work over the summer holidays, we used to do a mini paper a day of around 15 minutes and then get on with our day, I'd mark it later and we'd go through it, I think by then if they don't know it then they never will, but a friend whose DD did no work over the summer didn't pass so it is worth doing that final little push. Yes I had grief with them but at the end of the day they're 10 and don't really know what's best in the long term!

I would say though that if your DD is borderline she might struggle at grammar, neither of mine had a tutor, I just went through past papers with them and both passed really well and don't find it a problem but it does bring pressure to keep up and a lot of the girls have issues.

Good luck.

Yes, I would let dd chose the outstanding comp over the grammar school because I believe in the school, headmaster and DD feels at home there and I don't think it would be a wrong choice. However, I don't feel the same about the local comp and would much prefer DD to go the grammar. If she really didn't like it, yes I would be prepared to take her out of the grammar. I resent my parents not fully considering my schooling I ended up at the most convenient school and did not fit it, education was poor. I eventually got a very good degree but it was a fight, I believe due to the inadequate education I received. The local comp is not this bad but I do believe education is important - and yes despite all of this I got better grades than some grammar/private school students. I want something better for my daughter wherever this is. My daughter may resent me now but I want to know I've done my best to enable her. I would not leave her in a school that made her miserable because of my own experience. I think DD lacks maturity to make a fully informed decision, I too believe this to be an important parenting decision. Rock and hard place sums this up but I'm going to shoulder this. I don't believe, I'm asking too much of DD, it works out to be less than an hour each day - set times in the day with lots of fun things packed in too. This is about me too, yes, based on my past experiences but as a parent you have to make difficult decisions some of which aren't always comfortable.

Does she have the academic ability? You can coach her and prepare her but if she doesn't have the ability you are both wasting your time. I personally think grammar schools are the best thing, but only for people who have the ability and attitude to benefit. It won't harm her to do a little extra work in the holidays, but if she doesn't see the benefits for herself and want to go she won't achieve.
I tried to persuade my daughter to take the 12+ as it was then, and she flatly refused, having recently changed schools twice due to moving.
She went in the sixth form, when she said it was the best thing she had ever done; she discovered 'it was cool to be clever', (her words).

OP - that comment wasn't really aimed at you. You clearly like the outstanding comp too so it is a joint decision. I'm not of the opinion that a grammar school always trumps a comp.

My comment was aimed at posters who have said that if she doesn't want to go to the grammar school you should back down - I don't agree with that.

If you're unlikely to get the comp you want, does your dd know that?

Your comment is aimed at me then as I fit your criteria.
Ds1 sat the test and has just finished yr11 in one of the best grammar schools in the country (school of the year etc).
Ds2 sat the test but didn't quite meet the passmark. He was diagnosed with dyslexia when he arrived at the comp and is yr10 in September and thriving.
Dd passed the test but gave a number of very good reasons for following ds2 to the comp. She starts in September.

Something I have learnt along the way is its not about the best school but the best school for that dc. I have put my relationship with Dd before my wish that she attends a grammar as in the long run that is more important.
She has a great work ethic and I have no doubts that she will thrive and be the best person she can be in an environment that she is happy and has chosen to be in.

Can you tell I disagree?

She went in the sixth form, when she said it was the best thing she had ever done; she discovered 'it was cool to be clever', (her words).

This is my DD's experience too - she did not sit the 11+ as she would not have passed at 11. By 16 she did well enough at GCSE to get in at local super selective and spent two extremely happy years there.

I had exactly the same situation last summer with my DS. He really resented me making him work through the summer holiday and was deliberately answering questions wrongly to make a point. He felt that he shouldn't be working during his holiday. Before the summer holiday he'd been working solidly without any complaints.

So we compromised, as I was slight worried that he may deliberately mess the exam up on purpose, so I scaled the work back to a 10 minute test in the morning and another one in the afternoon for the last 4 weeks of the holiday.

However once he went back to school in September he had a complete turn around almost as if school equalled work so was then willing to work a lot more before the test. Or he suddenly realised that he should applied himself more in the holiday!

I wasn't prepared to let him totally slide his preparation as he'd worked so hard for the last 12 months and kept reassuring him that it was all going to be worth it in the end and that once he'd done the test he would basically have a year off in Year 6. We also promised him to buy him a present for all his hard work, not the result, which we bought after the test and before we knew the result. I think the bribery helped!

He passed and got into a super selective grammar and did indeed have a year off work in Year 6!

Out of the few children I've ever known who have sat 11+ tests all have wanted to do the practice tests etc to get better ( even those that unfortunately didn't pass)
They all understood that it was to help them and they wanted to practice to get better at answering the questions etc.

Maybe being that bit younger, your DD isn't mature enough to understand this, or maybe she's just a bit fed up?
I don't think you're asking a lot of your daughter TBH. An hour a day is normal for this kind of thing ( she survives 6 hours at school after all!)

Bert

You must think they improve life chances as you tried with both your children

The only prep your dd should do is familiarisation with the papers. My ed did loads of them at home and got rubbish marks, but then passed the 11+ with a really high one. I think her teachers were surprised as she wasnt hugely academic at school.
My ds did quite a few, though not as many, and he also passed with a high one. His teachers always said he was grammar material. Both went to the grammar schools.
My yd also did past papers, again not so many, and she didn't pass, but only missed it by a few marks.
Not one of my three was forced into sitting it. It was an option offered to them. Although my son was adamant he was not going to the local boys school as it has a really bad rep.
My feeling is if you need to have lots of tutoring for getting into a school, then you are not really up to the high demands of the school, as the getting in is the easy bit. The reason they have the tests is to get the pupils who are capable of the work.

You should remove tv/gadgets and other distractions until she does her piece of work. 20 min at a time is almost nothing

You are supposed to be the adult here - yes, some things are annoying and not fun (tidying up, doing homework, eating vegetables) but that's the whole point of parenting, making sure your child makes good choices that they lack the maturity to make on their own.

^this

I remember it dawning on me clearly that my best friends would not pass their 11+
I was really upset but never mentioned it to my parents

I wonder if this is at play?

If she needs an hour a day to pass the exam, she's never going to be happy attending the school.

hate the grammar school obsession. Children thrive in the right environment and with good home support and love. Not everyone is grammar material, either academically or in the grammar environment. As good as grammar schools may be academically, they have less focus on many other important areas.

Would she really be offered a place at grammar school if it was her second choice? Maybe it's a different system to ours.

I suggest you shake it up and find some other ways of working. Find some online revision sites. Read together and discuss critically, watch tv docs or news and discuss. Make a game of learning a new word each day and seeing how many times you can use it. Lots of ways of learning that aren't all sitting down doing work books.

Our local grammar schools all had different types of exams to discourage all this preparationwhich was obviously a complete failure.

Yes I did primarily let DD1 choose her secondary school - all the schools we looked at were good but she had a nice feeling about the one she eventually got into. Both the girls grammars I thought were so good, it did come down to gut feeling in the end. You have to know your own child and what they are capable of. DD1 is a perfectionist high achiever and usually needs to be told its ok to chill out rather than being pushed by us.

I bought all the practice papers from waterstones, ds did one a day 45 mins ish over the summer holidays

He did it first thing at 9am so over & done with to enjoy the rest of the day, come test day I think he was prepared & confidant

I also gave him £2 a test as an incentive

Test results are nearly always standardised for age, so being the youngest in your year will actually gain her more marks!

Maybe go for just one session a day. Two means there are two to dread.

Can I suggest any lackwits and busibodies offering advice to the OP along the lines that she shouldn't be considering grammar schools anyway because you don't agree with them bugger off elsewhere onto the numerous threads discussing education policy?

OP - perhaps get the thread moved to education/secondary advice. AIBU is great for traffic but can be a bitchfest of unwarranted advice based on ignorant assumptions and projection of posters' insecurities and judging others' life choices. Rather than the advice that was asked for.

Thanks Maple.

Good suggestion to move thread, not sure how I do that, does someone need to come along and move it?

We live in an area with Grammar schools. Neither child wanted to do it, so they didn't. They went to the local school. They are both well ( very important) and succeeding.

Standardisation doesn't mean they "gain" marks, just that they are compared to others born in the same month. It may or may not mean that younger children need lower marks to pass, it depends on how "clever" the children born in that month are.

Timing is key. Might she be interested in doing something like Nintendo Brain Training? It helps with speed.