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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

feeling mortified- what do we owe this nanny?

51 replies

deliverdaniel · 15/08/2016 23:35

Bear with me on this one.

We live abroad so different tax system etc obviously. shortly after we moved here, we employed a nanny. we wanted to pay all the relevant taxes etc, but it was all a bit complicated and we didn't know the system. So we employed an accountant to sort it out for us. He filed our tax return, told us what we owed and we paid the relevant taxes.

18 months later, we just found out he didn't tell us we needed to flll out one more form for this thing called unemployment insurance for her. We would have paid the equivalent of about 300 pounds in another tax and then after leaving the job she would have been able to claim unemployment benefit for 6 months (equivalent of about 4000 pounds total). But we didn't fill it out because we didn't know about it, so now she can't claim until it's all sorted out, which could take weeks. I have now filled out all the right forms and paid the taxes. But what do we owe her? Legally apparently nothing, but morally?? What would you do? Loan her money? Give her money? How much?? (I know if we loan her money we are almost certainly never going to see it again) I feel horrified that this has happened....WWYD?

OP posts:
cluelessnewmum · 16/08/2016 06:30

I think the nanny should be taking some responsibility for this to be honest - she knew you weren't from the country you're living in and so would not be familiar with the system. If her employer has to do something to make sure she gets paid unemployment benefit I think she should know that and have checked at the time, as she's self employed she should have been more savvy to the system. Think you've been incredibly generous giving/lending her £1000 as well as paying to get this benefit. As you say she was given presumably plenty of notice and she's had a job since. Your conscience is more than clear. If you're happy to write off the money you've given her then just leave it at that.

DeathStare · 16/08/2016 06:37

cluelessnewmum - would you expect a nanny over here to be able to advise their employers about which class of National Insurance payments they needed to pay? I wouldn't.

Mommawoo · 16/08/2016 07:21

This sounds very similar to the Greek system where employers pay 300 per month to IKA for their employees to cover unemployment, health insurance etc. Any employers that do not pay this money are liable for a fine of 10,000 euros per employee, so I would definitly try to come to some arrangement with the nanny as she could cause you a lot of trouble if she decided to report having worked without insurance. Its your responsibility to know that you have to pay this also, not the accountant. The unemployment payments here are something like 300 per month.

cluelessnewmum · 16/08/2016 07:33

deathstare I wouldn't expect them to know the particulars but if it is something your employer has to do so you get a benefit it's in your interests to know they at least have to do something. I'm sure this isn't the first job the nanny has had in this country so you'd expect her to have some idea of how the system works in the country where she's from. I imagine that is why whoever employed her after that paid her cash in hand to get round this system.

OllyBJolly · 16/08/2016 07:50

The OP can't abrogate the responsibility to pay the tax, just as I can't not put in a company tax return. However, I pay an accountant to take care of all that, and if he didn't, leading to a fine or other kind of loss, I would want compensated or not advising me properly.

So, as I see it, the OP has some responsibility to the nanny - but not a lot, as there has been another employer since then who has also not paid this tax, and therefore must share the responsibility. The OP also has a complaint against her accountant for poor advice and should be looking for some refund on fees paid.

Brokenbiscuit · 16/08/2016 07:54

OP, I think you should pay her the equivalent of unemployment benefits for the period between her leaving your employment and starting her next cash in hand job. Once she started that job, she was no longer unemployed and your responsibilities were entirely discharged, regardless of whether her next employer paid the employment insurance or not - that's between her and then.

CoraPirbright · 16/08/2016 07:59

The accountant couldn't care less and says it's our responsibility- which is technically true

But I am not sure that that is technically true! You employed him specifically to deal with these things as you knew that it was a complicated system that you didnt know much about. He failed! I think he should be held to account (no pun intended).

GrumpyOldBag · 16/08/2016 08:04

Surely the nanny bears a degree of responsibility too. If this form was so important she should have asked if it had been completed too.

Diglet · 16/08/2016 08:36

And yes, it is a legal requirement to do this form

There's your answer...

I'm glad you are making it ok with her.

Diglet · 16/08/2016 08:38

OP

I'm really curious what the country is?

It's not dissimilar to UK families hiring 'au pairs' who aren't really au pairs.... Everyone does but some people will get stung.

AnchorDownDeepBreath · 16/08/2016 08:42

Have you looked into whether it's allowable to pay her? It may well negate her claim for unemployment if she's actually being paid - the £1000 would certainly affect JSA and most alternatives that I can think of.

If also be very cautious that you're being hit with this when her next employer paid cash in hand. Surely your unemployment insurance lapsed when she took a new job, and the new job need to have started new insurance for her?

APlaceOnTheCouch · 16/08/2016 09:20

Hmm, I'd seek independent professional advice. From your posts, it's not clear why the accountant isn't liable. If you employed him specifically to advise you on employment and tax issues, then he has made a mistake (and should have professional indemnity insurance to cover what this mistake has cost you).
If the nanny had a post after your's and is trying to claim unemployment benefit whilst working cash-in-hand, then I'd be concerned that what she is doing is illegal and I'd worry about your liability since you're aware that she is trying to do both.

Mix56 · 17/08/2016 18:19

It took her 18 months to discover there was paperwork missing. Now you have rectified, she will get her unemployment soon, if she is entitled to it.
It was a genuine mistake & you are not natives, She presumably is, it is odd she didn't mention it.
Personally I think you owe her nothing, it wasn't deliberate & the accountant was at fault. She has had an apology, & will get her money.
However If she is out on the streets, maybe you could offer her a room until the money comes through .......

Miisty · 17/08/2016 18:43

You paid the accountant so morally it is their mistake as the firm knew the law .Why did it take so long to find out?

impossible · 17/08/2016 19:42

I think you've been really impressive trying to do the right thing when so many people dont bother. You should probably pay her benefit from when she left you until her next job. That would seem fair.

T0ddlerSlave · 17/08/2016 20:01

Don't feel too guilty. She's obviously happy to take cash in hand as well as legal jobs, so unless you were paying less while you had her because you were doing it properly, I imagine she should see it as a bonus that she has this unemployment money coming in at all.

Anmi0802 · 17/08/2016 20:37

I worked as as nanny for 10 years and never heard of nanny insurance Shock
If you had a contract with her then she knew the job would have an end so it should be ok.
But you seem really nice and if you want to help then give her something instead?
Or wait until everything is sorted and she will get her insurance

TowerRavenSeven · 17/08/2016 20:51

I am in the States where I assume this is happening. I always understood receiving "Unemployment" only when the company fires you or lays you off. If it was agreed the start and end time I think you owe her nothing! She wasn't fired or laid off. It's awful she's struggling but (not being hard hearted here) it's not really your problem.

anotherdayanothersquabble · 17/08/2016 21:49

Nanny employment is tricky. You are being kind trying to find a solution.

Morally and legally, it is the employers responsibility to ensure they cover all of their obligations in relation to their employees and in this case, you failed.

Your accountant is an ass, you relied on him to tell you what you needed to file and pay and he did not tell you everything.

The actions of your nanny after her employment with you are largely irrelevant from the position of the higher moral ground. However... if her subsequent employer had paid the unemployment insurance she would have been covered, if she had made the claim earlier, you could have sorted it earlier... Is she claiming for a time when in fact she was working...

If you could be sure of getting the money back, I would give it to her in a heartbeat but nothing is certain, especially in tax refunds and it sounds like she is unlikely to repay you. You have met her in the middle, if she is on the streets and hungry, offer her food and shelter and write the amount you have already given her off as just another cost of living in a country where you don't understand the rules. (I could write a book but I would be too embarrassed to admit the magnitude of my mistakes!!)

Thingamajiggy · 17/08/2016 22:09

In my experience as a business owner, accountants cock up like that all the time. Those 'little slip ups' have almost cost me the business more than once, but ultimately unless you can make some kind of negligence claim the buck always stops with you. You are the one who's responsibility it is to know the law and you need to make good.

Are you SURE you're not legally obliged to fill in this insurance form? If it's not necessary, then why would any employer bother do it? If it's some kind of optional thing, then the onus should be on the nanny to mention it?

It's impossible to say what do without clarifying the legal situation. You should definitely seek legal advice and help the nanny out if you're able to in the meantime.

Benedikte2 · 18/08/2016 10:47

OP I think you have abrogated your moral duty by giving her the additional 1000 and filling out the forms so she will get more. You clearly valued the work she did for you and want to do the right thing by her and I think you have undertaken that moral obligation.
If you want to help her further give her part time employment as a babysitter or helping with domestic chores.
Sounds as if you are a great employer

0nTheEdge · 18/08/2016 10:48

Considering she's had a job since you where she had earned wages, you've given her an extra 1,000, and she will get get benefits backdated, I think you you massively gone above and beyond. It seems you've done everything in your power to rectify a mistake, whether yours or accountants, and have paid our a lot of extra money on top. I really don't think you should pay out any more money if she's getting backdated.

Mix56 · 18/08/2016 11:01

if she is claiming now, she is claiming for the 18 months, when infact she was working for cash. This is fraud.

pollymere · 18/08/2016 12:34

It was an eighteen month contract. If you were giving her correct tax and national insurance contributions then she automatically gets unemployment benefit. Chances are she may not have earnt enough anyway. Never heard of this, unless you weren't paying her NI.

GarlicMistake · 19/08/2016 04:40

OP isn't in the UK, polly. Sounds like the US system.

"Unemployment Insurance (UI) is a federal-state program jointly financed through Federal and state employer payroll taxes (federal/state UI tax). Generally, employers must pay both state and Federal unemployment taxes if: (1) they pay wages to employees totaling $1,500, or more, in any quarter of a calendar year; or, (2) they had at least one employee during any day of a week during 20 weeks in a calendar year, regardless of whether or not the weeks were consecutive."

workforcesecurity.doleta.gov/unemploy/uitaxtopic.asp

On claiming:

"You must meet the State requirements for wages earned or time worked during an established period of time referred to as a "base period". (In most States, this is usually the first four out of the last five completed calendar quarters prior to the time that your claim is filed.)
You must be determined to be unemployed through no fault of your own (determined under State law), and meet other eligibility requirments of State law."

workforcesecurity.doleta.gov/unemploy/uifactsheet.asp

The expected termination of a contract would not count as becoming unemployed through your own fault in the UK, and it probably doesn't elsewhere.

Several posters have assumed that OP would've been insuring her nanny only for unemployment arising from the end of her job. Not so - it isn't an insurance premium, it's unemployment insurance tax which is basically an (even!) more complicated version of National Insurance.

Whether the nanny's managed to wangle some cash-in-hand work during her period of entitlement is none of OP's business. I don't even know whether their law's as draconian as ours on working while claiming - some administrations allow it. Even ours allows you to earn a bit extra.