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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think dh is winding me up when he says some people on benefits are getting £500 a week?

640 replies

angelos02 · 07/08/2016 16:35

I'm pretty sure he's talking bullocks? Otherwise why the fuck would anyone do a minimum wage job?

OP posts:
TheHoneyBadger · 11/08/2016 10:49

i'm one of those you might say had a lazarus like recovery. i wasn't ready to go back to work but i was terrified by what i was hearing about atos and the like and the bullying and hell people were being subjected to. i managed to find a job that i could manage, was part time but money ok, flexible-ish hours to fit round a young ds and a lot of control over my time and diary and how often i was out doing stuff or in my office doing less physically or socially demanding work. so the combo of fear and a suitable job miraculously appearing got me back into work.

when that job was made redundant just over a year later i was terrified again of going on benefits or dealing with the system so took another job, this one saw me seriously ill again within weeks of starting as it wasn't at all suitable with my health issues and i was signed off. it was a 'good' job with good sick pay so the expense of my illness was passed onto employers instead of government until i resigned and became self employed and just settled for living in poverty at that point rather than have to deal with the kind of harassment i'd get if i had had to sign on as a disabled person again.

i've made it through by hook or crook over the last six years and managed not to have to sign on despite some periods of extended ill health that i could never have worked outside the home through and i've now found another solution that will see us through the next year hopefully.

not so much lazarus like recovery as dragging myself along and hanging on by fingernails at points to avoid the humiliation of what the tories were doing to disabled people.

TheHoneyBadger · 11/08/2016 10:55

i suppose for others not as privileged as me that first bout of illness would have seen them having to sign on as they weren't entitled to any sickpay and having to sign on as unemployed and try and prove their illness whilst being sanctioned by the job centre the first time they couldn't make it to their appointment or an interview due to illness. also many found themselves in the loop of turned down for disability benefits but told they were unfit for work by the job centre hence screwed. others would have been sent on workfare packing shelves for free for millionaires and getting sanctioned when they were too ill to do that free labour.

i struggle to see any of this as a 'success'.

those determined not to work and wanting to play the system are no doubt still sitting pretty. that tiny minority for whom we have flogged the sick and dying to satisfy you

BillSykesDog · 11/08/2016 10:58

So those without children have always been comparably worse off.

But those without children and on benefits better off than those on the lowest wages without children.

pleasemothermay1 · 11/08/2016 11:38

There is no such thing as a uniform grant in my area.

I'm currently receiving £180 payment per month towards my mortgage. I'm grateful for this but I still have to find £500 plus extra for the mortgage each month and with a missing salary/child support from my husband who went off the radar overnight.

I didn't give it much thought before but there really isn't much of a safety net for those in sudden unfortunate circumstances. It's scary.
Add message | Report | Message poster TheHoneyBadger Thu 11-Aug-16 10:49:39really my people at my old house had not worked for 22 years also none of there four adult sons work seems like a feathered bed if you ask me

pleasemothermay1 · 11/08/2016 11:40

And I always find it bloody amusing people saying there are no fecking jobs people from ruddy Poland whom speak little English and haven't even had a uk education often find work in a costa or a mc Donald's with in days of getting of the frigging coach

May in the uk are more ashamed to work in mc Donald's than to claim that's what the real issue is

practy · 11/08/2016 11:43

I have a major chronic illness and also work part time as does my DP. Government research identified that some people worked with sometimes quite severe illnesses or disabilities, but when they were made redundant, went on sickness benefits and disability benefits. My dad did this. When he was made redundant he went on sickness benefit as it was more money - he was genuinely ill but had worked.

I sometimes think some people have no idea how many people are actually working who are disabled and chronically ill. By the time people are 50 years of age, just under half have a chronic illness. I know people who are terminally ill who are working.

What I do wish is there was more temporary help. I don't get paid for sick leave and have had a lot of time on statutory sick pay which means I struggle financially.

practy · 11/08/2016 11:44

Many people from places like Poland take zero hour contracts. I wouldn't take them if I had any choice. They are a nightmare in terms of planning your budget and cause many people major financial problems.

Justanotherlurker · 11/08/2016 11:54

Many people from places like Poland take zero hour contracts.

And many people on Zero hour contracts are happy with them, so its a moot point really.

pleasemothermay1 · 11/08/2016 11:55

No because yu have the choice not to work and relay on others to pay your way and that's proves op husbands point

That often your better off sitting on your arse than working
it's always easier to find work when yur in work

pleasemothermay1 · 11/08/2016 11:57

racty Thu 11-Aug-16 11:44:58
Many people from places like Poland take zero hour contracts. I wouldn't take them if I had any choice. They are a nightmare in terms of planning your budget and cause many people major financial problems.

my husband is a nurse and the NHS would collapse with out bank workers those to complain about them will be the first ones moaning when there is no cover in the hospitals when the staff nurse is ill or is on leave

Also most pools rely on bank work most students are lifeguards and wouldn't be able to commit to full time regular work

It's suits some and not others if your employer is a dick they will chance there arm no matter what contact you have

TheHoneyBadger · 11/08/2016 12:18

the issue is choice and it not being a standardised route for your entire workforce just to get out of having to provide any security or provision for your staff.

i'd love bank work as a person whose health fluctuates and has a child to work round if there was plenty of work to choose from. that is rather different than someone desperate to work full time hours being forced to take a zero hours contract that they know won't give them enough hours. the more you force people onto contracts like that the more standard fare they will become until no employer has to provide any security at all in a contract.

smallfox2002 · 11/08/2016 13:58

Bill, I cited the amount of fraud because you were banging on about people claiming benefits when they were healthy enough to work. If you are claiming incapacity, but can actually work this would be fraudulent no? Please do try to keep up dear.

Furthermore, your anecdotal "Lazarus" like recoveries are most likely going to be insignificant against the DWP data that proves that nearly 90 people a month died between 2011 and 2014 shortly after being declared "fit to work".

As a previous poster said its using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

I also see a lot on here, the anecdote that you get more on benefits than if you work, which only becomes true if you are on incapacity or disability benefit.

OH btw Bill my 14% of entire government spending statistic earlier was including disability, without that it works out as about 9% but this includes HB which covers pensioners as well, so the % of total spending on benefits for those of working age is even lower than this.

As previously pointed out when people talk about lifestyle, what do you want? The sick and disabled to live in penury?

IfTheCapFitsWearIt · 11/08/2016 14:31

Fuck RTFT

Right then, I got me baseball bat and I'm ready to do some damage, i've been watching channel five and reading some truthful, non exaggerating news papers.

LET THE BASHING BEGIN!!

I'll divide you up first.

Whole families on benefits stand over there please, your first single mums? Just next to them please, no don't stand to close to the others, I need room to swing me bat, families with disabled child stand to the left please, then feckless single mums of disabled child next to them, disabled? MH probs? Arhh you can stand together.

Ok i've put them all into order for you OP you can take the bat and finish the job.

My conclusion is that these thread raise their ugly heads just before more cuts are announced.

As someone wise on MN once said
You should only look in your neighbours pot to check they have enough.

Lurkedforever1 · 11/08/2016 17:35

bill no arguments from me about how they mess you about. However they do that to everyone, not just new claimants. If anything new claimants get it better, because there is more chance you'll complain, and demand they follow rules.

please why not try the mails comment section, they're more likely to be ignorant enough to believe your uninformed stereotyping.

BillSykesDog · 11/08/2016 18:52

foxes that was never fraud. It was a deliberate systemic failure which meant that the quality of decisions that people were fit to work were not effectively checked or audited and the 'policing' of validity of claims was not done effectively and often dumped on GPs given no resources or incentives to apply it equitably or effectively which did mean that plenty of people who were fit to work were signed off and received benefits which they shouldn't really have been entitled to but were committing no fraud in receiving them. Because we did really get to a point where sickness benefits became an 'on demand' system in all but name.

I'm familiar with the hysterical figures about 'x number of people died in the month before they were found fit to work'. They're absolutely meaningless out of context and anybody with a glancing knowledge of statistics could tell you that.

The only way they could acquire any meaning is if a control group of a similar size was proven not to have a similar level of unexpected deaths or if each death could be unequivocally related to the condition which was declared not to be severe enough to prevent them working. The fact that those statistics are never, ever related by campaigners to the background facts which would give them meaning makes me strongly suspect that the links don't exist and the figures are in fact meaningless.

As an example: if 1,000 people are signed off work with knee pain are declared fit to work, but 100 then died in the following month from heart attacks or car crashes that doesn't mean that the decision to say they were fit for work was wrong unless you can show a causal link. You might do that by looking at some control groups of 1000 people and seeing that only 1 of them would be expected to die in any given month so the figure of 100 dying would clearly show something was going on with the group sent back to work having disproportionate deaths. Or showing that each of those 100 deaths was unequivocally linked to knee pain which was declared safe to work with. If, however, the number of deaths is found to be in line with the rest of the population it probably means the figures aren't linked. And making that link is what campaigners always fail to do. All those figures tell us is that some people have died. Not that their deaths were caused by the decisions.

Given that millions of people have been through these assessments and the overall mortality rates of benefit claimants dropped over the same period those figures are so low they seem to be pretty likely to be meaningless in the context of what they tell us about the effects of assessments.

I suspect the fact that hundreds of thousands if not millions of people have come off sickness benefits and returned to work without major issue speaks volumes more about the assessment programme than a handful of deaths which have no proven link to the programme do anyway.

BillSykesDog · 11/08/2016 18:54

And no, I don't want the sick and disabled to live in penury. But I do think that before being supplied with a comfortable lifestyle the people supplying that lifestyle have a right to check that the support is needed rather than just wanted.

AndNowItsSeven · 11/08/2016 18:58

I please mother no uniform grants, bus passes, council tax benefit or free school trips where I live.

heknowsmysinsheseesmysoul · 11/08/2016 19:08

In my opinion, something had to give. Successive governments failed to adequately assess people on sickness benefits so there was a lot of scope for people to take the piss for years.

Then they threw the baby out with the bathwater and made it extremely difficult for genuine claimants to get the help they need and are entitled to.

It's gone from one extreme to the other and causes huge amounts of distress to ill people who are now basically told they're fine when they transparently are not.

HelenaDove · 11/08/2016 19:11

Thing is more people are surviving cancer than ever before.

They are often left with long term side effects which can last the rest of their lives. Caused by harsh treatments like chemotherapy and radiotherapy.

This can leave them with health problems which show up intermittently which would be a variable health condition after "winning" their cancer battle.

Quite aside from the fact that i hate that phrase and it only seems to be used to describe cancer....................what have they won. The right to be thought of as malingerers by certain people after they have gone into remission!

Thanks to advances in medical science more ppl are surviving but society needs to catch up and that means having a better attitude and more compassion for people with variable health conditions.

practy · 11/08/2016 19:29

But many of those people can work.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 11/08/2016 19:31

bill there have always been punitive sanctions applied to people falsely stating they are unable to work and to doctors who sign patients off when it is not needed.

Back when I was a fraud investigator one of the things we used to do was pay attention to % of sick notes issues by individual doctors and practises and compare them, to high and questions would be asked.

We also often used to make claiments see DWP medics for checking up if they met certain criteria.

The everybody on the sick for the fun of it is nonsence, granted there were some system abusers but it was not anywhere near as rife as people think.

You cannot have a rule that says "a qualified medical doctor honestly believes you are unfit to work for medical reasons" change it to "if you can lift a empty cardboard box, introduce yourself and press a key in a keyboard (any key we won't tell you the one we want just put your hand on the keyboard" your fit for work, and then use the resulting fall in people accepted as unfit for work as evidence of previous widespread legal system abuse

HelenaDove · 11/08/2016 19:39

Yes they can practy but most employers will employ the person without a health condition.

being able to work some of the time and being given the oppurtunity to

including not being moaned at when you take the day off sick are two different things.

HelenaDove · 11/08/2016 19:41

How come GPs CANT be trusted when it comes to deciding who is fit for work and yet CAN be trusted when it comes to being in charge of their surgerys budget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

smallfox2002 · 11/08/2016 19:52

totally agree needs a sock.

There were always people that took the mick, but they were a small minority, not the majority. The changes have seen genuinely ill and vulnerable people placed in impossible situations.

Just5minswithDacre · 11/08/2016 19:57

You cannot have a rule that says "a qualified medical doctor honestly believes you are unfit to work for medical reasons" change it to "if you can lift a empty cardboard box, introduce yourself and press a key in a keyboard (any key we won't tell you the one we want just put your hand on the keyboard" your fit for work, and then use the resulting fall in people accepted as unfit for work as evidence of previous widespread legal system abuse

A few high-up people didn't get that memo.

It almost makes one review ones own understanding of 'obvious', 'fair' & 'common sense', doesn't it?