To wonder how people cope living in London?!

[WinterIsHereJon]

I'm visiting for the weekend. It's hot, sweaty, incredibly busy. We had the misfortune of travelling on the tube during rush hour earlier, people pushed and pushed onto an already full train, to the point where I became rather intimately acquainted with a chap behind me. Despite the complete lack of room people were still attempting to read newspapers! I think I'd snap if that was part of my daily routine, I don't know how people do it!

sparechange it's interesting because the point of my post was about the dangers of lead contamination and eating from hipster London gardens that have not been tested. To suggest that I was talking bollocks I got *
If you are really worried about contaminated soil, you should stop eating food grown in areas with a tannery history, which would be vast areas of the Cotswolds, Somerset and Northampton.* with the point being what exactly? That other areas are just as bad so your damned anyway? Or are you actually trying to suggest that eating vegetables grown in London is safer than rural land or perhaps your point was that everything is shit, so why stress? Not really sure why the standards of the rest of the country would have any bearing on the safety of growing food in untested London soil.

But the reason I thought the UK would have very high food standard practices is because this is usually the case. If you are saying that's not the case, then so be it. I'm sure the UK government has more pressing issues than the standard of their food industry.

Also you forget that a lot of the agricultural land is used for grazing. I would assume this is especially likely in Northumberland. Meat is regularly tested to check it is under the legal limits for lead. Yes that is an assumption for the UK. I would hope beyond hope that I am correct but I'm sure you'll come and tell me it was bollocks, meat is not tested for lead in the UK and all the farms in Northumberland actually do a roaring trade in cabbages .

Will you now confirm the following statements are totally untrue and made up on the spot by you for the purpose of this thread:

No and here's why, unless you want to throw the old "but this is from the USA so it is not the case in London" at me, but I'm afraid that would be straw clutching at best.

In answer to others, oliversmummy Thames Water will test your water and replace your pipes for free and no EnthusiasmDisturbed you don't just make sure they have tested their soil, use soil from other areas or have taken steps to minimise their lead-contamination. Many do this and are well aware of the dangers of lead-contamination in London.

Ifailed if you are growing on a balcony then I assume you are using compost bags or shop bought soil, so you actually have nothing to worry about. As long as you wash the tomatoes.

Dizzy, that's some pretty selective editing you did there.

You missed the bit where it was discovered as part of a routine testing programme of allotment soil, in an inner London borough, in the 1990s, and was unusual enough to write a journal article about.

You also omitted the bit where the researchers said the worst-case scenario 'probably greatly overestimated the actual dietary exposure' for various reasons (assuming people only ate food from the site and didn't wash or peel it before eating). It aso noted that the blood lead levels of the allotment holders were within the normal range, although there was no way to exclude future risk to health if the site were not remediated. Allotment holders were advised not to cultivate ^until after remediation) not because the food was inherently unhealthy but because preparation (soil removal) could not be guaranteed to remove all the contaminated soil particularly in a non-professional context, and also because of exposure to soil dust.

Extrapolating to 'food grown in London soil' is either mendacious or a bit stupid.

Equally, you shared a map of lead levels in London. If you look at the latest BGS data lead concentrations in topsoil are worse in areas of the Peak District National Park and the Yorkshire Dales than in most parts of London.

Your evidence base needs a fair old bit of work.

This is not to say that there aren't pockets of lead contaminated soil in London. Of course there are. But suggesting it is a uniquely London, or even a uniquely urban, issue in the UK is rubbish. Your risk of growing veg in lead contaminated soil is just as high, if not higher, in vast swathes of the greenest countryside than it is in a British town or city, including London. Your perception of relative risk on this subject is way off.

Air quality is another issue altogether and is one of my biggest worries about raising kids in London (even on the greenest edges where I now live.)

Oh how simple you make it seem, just pick up the phone and hey presto its done.

They have to dig up your garden but before they start to dig it up they have to do battle with the local council about the trees that have TPOs on them who's roots would be damaged. I have already looked into it. Shortest time even if the local council allow everything is 2 years. Most of this will mean living with a trench running the length of the garden because once the trench has been dug you then have to wait for it to be passed fit for purpose. Current wait time between trench dug and inspection 6 months. Everything has to be inspected and each stage means a 6 month wait

then I assume you are using compost bags or shop bought soil, so you actually have nothing to worry about

Phew, that's a load of my mind. My tomatoes do look pretty in the urn I'm growing them in.

They'd have to take out house apart to replace the lead pipes......... We're in rural Devon though.

Peak District National Park and the Yorkshire Dales are National Parks made on former lead mining sites so of course they have high levels of lead. They are also considered some of the lowest grade agricultural land in the UK.

Also where is the data for this? I just read the study and it specifically says that NSI samples cover all of England at a density of one site per 25 km2. But the G-BASE samples are collected at a far higher density, urban samples at four sites per km2 and rural samples at one site per 2 km2. G-BASE sample coverage (of analysed topsoils) is only for central and eastern England. So the data for The Peak District and The Yorkshire Dales covers areas of 25 km2 rather than four sites per km2 in London. You get a much more in depth picture for London.

What data are you looking at?

The map I linked to is part of London Earth project aiming to give insight into the environmental impacts of urbanisation and industrialisation and the geochemical baseline of London. There is a country wide map based on the samples. The London map levels for lead go from 11 mg/kg to over 10,000. The country wide map key is 22.8 - 986 mg/kg. London areas that fall over the 986 mg/kg will appear to be the same as other areas of the country with levels of up to 986. Which is misleading if you don't take the key into consideration.

Ifailed can't see the tomatoes but the urn looks pretty!

Oliversmumsarmy does that mean they did the water test and found it to be too high? In which case . My mum's house is Georgian and they tested her water and said it was fine. Which is good because she gets enough lead in her toxic chard!

Well, yes, obviously. There are reasons for lead contamination. It would be quite the curiosity otherwise.

However, your original statement was:

Growing food in the city has risks. ....London is not the countryside and growing your own veggies as a way of pretending you have the best of both worlds can actually be a big mistake.

You made a lot of very silly statements that the risk of growing your own food in London (or any city) was inherently more dangerous than growing it 'in the countryside'. You ignored the fact that vast swathes of the countryside have extremely high contamination levels due to former land use, and that significantparts of London (where as you say more detailed sampling is carried out) have relatively low levels. Your statement about cities has even less basis in fact.

You also completely misrepresented a study about a single contaminated site in an inner London borough in the 90s.

You're now spinning trying to justify yourself by changing your argument to one about commercial agriculture. How about just owning the fact that you said something silly and baseless?

You made a lot of very silly statements that the risk of growing your own food in London (or any city) was inherently more dangerous than growing it 'in the countryside'.

It is, for many reasons. Firstly there is a higher population density in cities, there is lead in the dust of inner cities in concentrations that you don't find rurally. Britain hasn't done a lot of research on lead levels which is not suprising given that lead based paints where banned in the UK 14 years after the USA and a whopping 80+ years after Australia.

In cities there are more pollutants from traffic and historic fuel burning than in the countryside. In fact, the BGS shows that London has higher lead levels and you have yet to come back with data that proves otherwise or backed up your claim that the Yorkshire Dales and The Peak DIstrict have higher levels.

In fact this statement Your risk of growing veg in lead contaminated soil is just as high, if not higher, in vast swathes of the greenest countryside than it is in a British town or city, including London.

That's crazy!

They may also be risks in some rural areas but the levels of toxins and pollutants are going to be higher in cities and so the chance of contaminants in the soil is greater.

But to claim they can actually be higer in rural areas! There may be pockets of rural areas that have as high a risk, but this is certainly not going to be the norm as it is cities. It is also very unlikely that the risk is ever higher!

Studies have studied the blood levels for lead in children in urban areas and compared them to rural children and suprise suprise the urban children have higher levels.
Urban dust has more lead than rural dust and it is contaminating the soil with lead. Lead based paint is the main cause and those levels are going to be higher in London where lead based paints were used until the 90's. Now that's not to say they are not also contaminating rural areas, but consider the number of buildings and density of buildings that the paint is flaking from; that's probably one reason why rural dust on average contains less lead.

If you want to believe that London is good at what it is good at AND even better than rural living, that's fine. You can argue all you want, you will not convince me and I would not eat school playground food or give it to my children.

No water test but I was having the house replumbed as we had been living with lead pipes since we bought the place and yes the house was pulled apart. Only 3 walls remain intact. We looked into getting the pipes from the road replaced as the water pipes were too small and the water pressure would have not been great. Went for a huge tank that pumps water around the house at a high pressure. It went in in a few days rather than wait 2 years and go through a load of hassle

Dizzy, are you anti-vax by any chance?
You seem dangerously obsessed with lead

You cant compare a rural village to London. Its only comparable when we compare to other capital in the world(Tokyo, NY, Paris etc). London is the only city where I think I can still live in when I am old/retired, its the city I am hoping my children will choose to stick to

If you want to believe that London is good at what it is good at AND even better than rural living, that's fine.

That's not what I've said, and I think you know that. Simply that your statement that food grown in urban areas is invariably more risky than food grown in rural areas from a lead contamination point of view is not supported by evidence. And your refusal to eat food grown in any (?) urban garden, while you will happily eat food grown in a rural garden, is not rational.

Based on the BGS data I'd rather grow food in my bit of outer London (where we've had the soil tested at the allotment - surprise, no problems!) than in bits of Derbyshire (covered by G-Base rural datasets) or Yorkshire where the countryside isn't quite as green and pleasant as all that when it comes to soil lead levels.

There are lots of pollution levels in lots of cities. I and others have spoken about London air pollution. But 'food grown in cities is dangerous because it is a city' is not an evidence-based position.

No I'm not anti-vax. I am not dangerously obsessed with lead either. I am very particular about what I eat and have come across lead-exposure as a factor in my work. All I did was point out that lead is something to be careful about and others have argued against that. Which is a bit but hey ho.

JassyRadlett Simply that your statement that food grown in urban areas is invariably more risky than food grown in rural areas from a lead contamination point of view is not supported by evidence.

Really! OK here's one www.vox.com/a/lead-exposure-risk-map but that's the USA who have actually done studies on lead exposure risks. The UK has no such data, logically though if the US finds the following to be true Urban areas have greater concentrations of risk, especially old industrial cities then we can logically assume that London is not the one little special little snowflake bubble place where this doesn't apply. Lead exposure of urban children has been studied in relation to academic performance and behaviour of school age children in the UK. I think the city used was Glasgow but not 100% on that. I know Glasgow has very high levels of lead exposure.

And your refusal to eat food grown in any (?) urban garden, while you will happily eat food grown in a rural garden, is not rational. where did I say that I would happily eat food grown in an untested rural garden? I have also not said that I would refuse to eat food grown in any urban garden. I have stated that I will not eat food grown in my mum's garden, nor did I or my children eat food grown in their 19th Century London School garden for the same reasons. I have twice stated that food can be grown in urban areas if the soil is tested and treated if necessary and it is a good idea to do this before you grow any food!

Dizzy: is your mom eating food grows in her garden? Has she got it tested and the result says its over the allowance limit? It also must be very hard for you to travel with kids and making sure they dont eat any foods which might have been grown from soil/land with lead, how do we know? They must also eat foods produced from other area?(imported from somewhere)
Out of interest, how do we find out if our land might be contaminated with lead and not safe to grow/live and if its that dangerous then how do we know if foods sell in supermarket is lead free?

Dizzy
What do you feed your children in the UK, given there is no soil testing, and even food labeled as organic can be grown in soil that has never ever been tested for your fearsome lead

So how do you get by outside of your home, when there is absolutely no way of knowing what is in the soil these plants were grown in (other than knowing organic produce hasn't used fertilisers and pesticides on the land)

Or have you believed all this time (as per all your posts yesterday) that soil has compulsory testing by the government before food is grown in it, and therefore you believed all shop and market-bought food is 'safe'?
If that is the case, how do you plan to proceed now you know it isn't the case? Will you bring all your food with you when you come to the UK in the future?

Greenleave no she has not had it tested because she doesn't care either. She thinks she is doing the planet a favour or some other hippy BS. I am not so totally obsessed that I worry about every mouthful my children take. I just make sure that most of the time they are eating good food. They eat junk food too believe it or not. Everything is ok in moderation but if you make it part of your daily diet then you are running a health risk.

I don't know how you find out, JassyRadlett has had her allotment tested so she will know.

sparechange my children eat food in the UK, given that they are there for one month every two years it is hardly a big concern. When we lived there we were vegetarian and did not eat food grown in dirty big cities, it doesn't bother me about the food in supermarkets and markets, what bothers me is the food grown in London, I do not want food grown in a place that makes you have black snot. Thanks, but no thanks!

We will just have to agree to disagree, you think London is clean enough and healthy enough to grow food and that it is no different to rural Britain and I disagree.

I live in London because it's amazing. Im in soho and have just had some amazing soup dumplings from my favourite shop that does them, have bought some records, I love the buzz, the people, it beats living anywhere else. Dahhhhhhlings

80s/90s London was much better. There was a wonderfully wistful thread about it

And, TBF to OP, there is a numerical basis for the idea that the crowds are getting worse - London's population is going up fast.

And it's visible too. People have moaned about the northern line for decades, but the central line used to be fine, even at peak-peak. Every time I come over Chelsea or Wandsworth bridge a new massive apartment building has joined the ranks.

If the crowdedness feels more apparent to someone who only visits London occasionally, than those of us who live here, it's not really surprising, is it?

it doesn't bother me about the food in supermarkets and markets, what bothers me is the food grown in London, I do not want food grown in a place that makes you have black snot.

This is absolutely insane! I have never seen anyone contradict themselves on a thread like you have...
"I am very selective about the food I eat and the food my children eat"/ "it doesn't bother me about the food in supermarkets and markets"

"I have twice stated that food can be grown in urban areas if the soil is tested and treated if necessary"/ "what bothers me is the food grown in London, I do not want food grown in a place that makes you have black snot"

"I will say that agricultural soil is tested and the food standards agency are very strict about the levels of soil contaminants in agricultural areas in Cotswolds, Somerset and Northampton" / "I don't know how it works in the UK"

Regarding your further obsession about lead in meat from animals grazed on lead-contaminated pastures. No, there is no routine testing of meat.
The government has issued the following guidance for when animals have suffered lead poisoning to the point of making them ill. You might want to note how it doesn't prevent that animal being sold for meat, or in the case of dairy animals, their milk being sold as well:
"What to do if you suspect lead poisoning in your cattle
If you suspect some of your cows are contaminated with lead, you must:
remove your cattle from the affected area (pasture, pen or yard) immediately
consult your vet
confirm the cause of disease and if it is lead poisoning then investigate the source"

They also issue guidance for farmers with lead contiminated fields, and again, none of it requires them to test the meat, test the grass or keep those animals out of the food chain.

As well as contaminated land, it also has advice to avoid animals getting lead poisoning from lead paint, flashing and litter around the farm which they could lick.

If you honestly think your 'ban urban food, eat everything else with impunity' approach is in any way scientific, you are as utterly deluded as you are uninformed.

I cannot fathom how you have the brass neck to make these bold statements of fact, when you so obviously know nothing about your subject, and your nonsense can be so easily be disproven with the most preliminary of google searches.
Who else have you spread your fearmongering horseshit to? It is baffling how you keep coming back and trying to pretend you know something about this, when you clearly, clearly don't.

I was taking the piss with the black snot comment, trying to lighten the thread a little as my criticism of food grown in London and recommendation that is probably not safe unless you know there is no risk of lead contamination has sparked off an insane amount of people desperate to prove me wrong with absolutely no evidence. It's acutally quite funny. Thout shalt not criticise London .

What is interesting also is that you are jumping on my lack of knowledge about the testing of agricultural soils and are now pointing out 101 ways that agricultural methods fall short of testing or keeping food safe and suggesting that this means they are all laced with lead and harmful chemicals. Now what point are you trying to make with that?

Because if food grown in rural areas is as bad as you are making it out then that only stregthens my point. It most certainly would not logically make urban food growing a better option. If anything it gives even more reason to avoid urban food if rural contamination is high then it's going to be even worse in a place with centuries of building work, factories and a higher density of trains, planes, people and cars.

easily be disproven with the most preliminary of google searches.
So why haven't you? I have given a few sources, one that pointed out the contamination of lead on an allotment in London and another that shows lead concentration in London. Would you be happy to think that all other allotments are safe and that one little patch of London was so unique they wrote about it? If it makes you happy to believe that then fine. Not one single person has come forward with proof that there is no lead or no risk of lead contamination in London soils. Find it and I will accept what you say.

If, as you say, there is no risk of lead contamination in London and I am peddling horseshit then why would the London Orchard Project have a page dedicated to urban contamination and focus on lead?

and again....I have not said ban urban food, eat everything else with impunity I will say again. IF you grow food in urban soil that you have not tested it is not a good idea to eat it. I have stated this several times FFS!