To ask when the "thee" pronunciation of "the" was abolished and why?

[wasonthelist]

The (thuh) for everything. When did this happen? Did it come from the USA?

How far is Sedgefield from Manchester? 🐕🐶🚗🚘

.. it's harder to say thee before a word starting with "e"

No it isn't, it's easier.

The other two are followed by consonant-starting words.

The vowel/consonant thing isn't a rule - it's just habit - other things sound better with "thee" too - no way does "thu RAF" sound right.

I'm talking about people who seem not to recognise the "thee" pronunciation at all and appear not to use it, ever.

'Thee RAF' sounds better because RAF is pronounced ar-ay-eff, so sounds as if it starts with a vowel. So thee RAF but thuh Royal Air Force.

When you all say 'thee elephant' or 'the egg' does it sound in fact like 'thee yelephant,' 'thee yegg,' or like there's a glottal stop (I think) between the words?

I thought "thee" was old English second person singular, with "thou" being second person plural. Still used in Yorkshire at times.

Going back it was subject (unsurprisingly) to the same rule as French so "Thee" was familiar, friendly, and "Thou" formal and reserved. To the extent (as with French) choosing to use the wrong one was an insult. If you know this, some of Shakespeare can make more sense ...

Blimey, am I saying things wrong.
We say 'The ( Thur' ) for everything and thought it was old fashioned when my greatgrandad used 'thee'. ( and he died at 97 forty eight years go)

Must visit the Sedgefield Dogging lay by. Maybe not with the kids, during the holidays, though.

I'm having one of those moments where I'm not sure what I normally say! I'm saying 'thee apple, thu apple' repeatedly and feeling confused.

I think I might use thee for special and exclusive things; stuff like 'thee one and only'.

LurkingHusband I thought thou was nominative case and thee was accusative? The distinction you're talking about was, I thought, between thou and you - equivalent to French tu and vous. (And 'thou' was the less formal choice).

Not a linguist, though, so I could be wrong.

I think I might use thee for special and exclusive things; stuff like 'thee one and only'.

Yes, you definitely use it for emphasis like that - if one was to say that 'the dogging layby is the place to see or be seen in Sedgefield' I think almost almost everyone would say 'thee' even though without the emphasis it would normally be 'thuh place'.

It wouldn't be "thee one" or "thee usual", because in most varieties of British English, neither "one" not "usual" begin with a vowel- both begin with consonants.

Interesting observation, OP - will listen out for this now.

I'm middle aged and in the south of England & only ever here "thee" on Regional tv dramas thinking about it.
Having said that, there's an REM tune called "The End Of The World As We Know It" & Stipey, sings both different pronounciations, in the same sentence, which backs up the vowel/consonant theory

LurkingHusband I thought thou was nominative case and thee was accusative?

Apparently "thee" is oblique en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou

Ever had one of those moments where you wish you hadn't started something . Especially to read that "you guys" is now vernacular

The confusion about thou and thee may come about because 'ye' (in late medieval or early Modern English, not Old English) is the way Ye Olde Touriste Trappes write 'The'. The original sound at the beginning would be 'th' not 'y'. It's not the same word as 'ye', which is a plural form of you.

Anyway.

I say t'other, because where I come from we borrow a few glottal stops from Yorkshire. It doesn't sound like 'thu' to me, but may be the same thing other people are talking about.

".. it's harder to say thee before a word starting with "e"

No it isn't, it's easier."

No it isn't, it's harder.

Jesus OP, terse much? To me, saying "Theee eeee yooo" does not trip of the tongue.

In french, you wouldn't say "le eglise". You would say "l'eglise". For the same reason as I mentioned in my first post. It is harder to follow one sound with exactly the same sound.

And that is why people say "th' EU". The "E" from the second word replaces the E from the end of "the".

And that is why people say "th' EU".

(some people)

I don't. I say "the" (pause) "ee" (hard "y" sound) "ewe". 3 separate sounds. But then I can also say the "h" in "wheel" (a la Dara O Briain) if I want to.

Jesus OP, terse much? ha ha I can be much more terse than that.

You're wrong. It's much easier to say Thee EU than Thuh EU - there's a definite (and grating to my ears) stop at the end of the "thuh"

Thee EU is almost like that thing in French ( I think it's called the liaison) where the words flow/merge.

Thee in front of a vowel, ther in front of a consonant. I thought it was always like that? (And I'm 50, so no spring chicken.

It's probably American and spread by the media, who love anything new. Look at AYE instead of UH, used constantly by media.It's always been UH before a consonant ( uh boat), AN before a vowel (an apple), so now it's AY boat or THEE boat. Bloody annoying.

I always thought I was on a little MNer-free island in my neck of the woods.

It seems there's dozens of you buggers, right on my bloody doorstep! Here's to a MN meet up in the layby.

Have never noticed anyone saying anything other than thee before a vowel sound and thu before a consonant (including thu university, thu uniform). But will listen out now.