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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is this appropriate conduct for solicitors?

814 replies

AugustaFinkNottle · 11/06/2016 22:33

A solicitors' firm which acts for councils in special educational needs tribunals has tweeted the following:

"Great ABA Trib win this week ... interesting to see how parents continue to persist with it. Funny thing is parents think they won ;)"

I can't link to it due to having been blocked Confused but it's been retweeted, e.g here.

The original tweet resulted in numerous complaints and a quick change to the tweet.

The case they're triumphalising about will have involved a disabled child. Lovely.

OP posts:
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Ruralretreating · 15/06/2016 20:48

Does anyone know if Kent CC uses this firm? I tried to search their payment data but it's not very user friendly.

youarenotkiddingme · 15/06/2016 21:01

I want to know where in the country a TA gets 12.50ph? Unless that is before tax and NI. Even then that's top rate pay and for those who are hlta's at top of payscale and expected to cover whole classes for periods of time.

AugustaFinkNottle · 15/06/2016 21:06

I don't think Kent uses, them, Rural. If they use lawyers they usually instruct a barrister.

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CurrerBell · 15/06/2016 21:35

The mum's comment in the Barnet article does bring it home how crazy the system is. By hiring lawyers such as Baker Small the LAs are using our money to screw over our kids! Parents pay into the state and have a reasonable expectation that their LAs will help provide access to essential services - not obstruct. It is the LAs' job to know SEN law and to work with the parents to find the best support for each child.

There must be a way of challenging how public spending is being used to actively deny services to those in need.

Now that this is in the news, hopefully more parents will feel they can share their experiences and be taken seriously.

ANewDayANewName · 15/06/2016 21:51

Please don't forget to complain to the Solicitors Regulation Authority.

Up thread are the specific Principles of the Code of Conduct that Mark Small has broken.

Also up thread is the timeline of tweets. Don't forget to include the fact that on Sunday by his tweet "appropriate disciplinary action" he inferred that it was not him tweeting.

Also that the "red mist" he claimed on LBC yesterday (Tuesday) cannot be true as his timeline of tweets went on well over a 24 hour period. I would also question his wisdom of phoning into a live LBC chat show.

Up-thread is also Augusta's analysis on why she feels that Mark Small has broken his clients (the LAs) confidentially. (Can't remember what Principle that has broken - perhaps someone will look it up?)

If you are a lawyer PLEASE complain. I am sure the SRA will take this seriously anyway. But if lawyers also complain along with parents then this will give more impact on the seriousness of this.

The email address is [email protected] - you'll get an auto-response from it.

2boysnamedR · 15/06/2016 21:53

Do you think £12.50 is good or bad for a TA? It's a higher level TA? I've no idea. I'm not saying my county - I think you know where I am anyway Grin

The SLT figure I don't get, no one on my case beloved they could get a SLT so cheap but at the end of the day they was spinning it all to come in under £10,000 and now I don't really care how the school pay for it - they didn't get the funding but my son get his SLT ( well hardly ever to be fair )

That's another downside of the school argueing they can meet needs within budget. They are now held to that and the LA told me they will not want to drop a non funded statement as it's working and costing the LA nothing. The school are left holding the purse strings.

Again I have no sympathy as the LA told the school to fight me as I would loose "it's a very simple open and shut case" was there exact words. But as I did win some things they ended up paying when it was agreed it could be meet at low cost and within budget.

No one wins here.

youarenotkiddingme · 15/06/2016 21:57

I think TA pay is crap! it never ceases to amaze me the extortionate prices LA's will pay lawyers to avoid providing X number of hours 1:1 for someone who's barely paid above minimum wage!

2boysnamedR · 15/06/2016 22:05

Well the school hasn't used her hours since November to meet his statement. The extra £24 a week is obviously killing them financially.....

whereonthestair · 15/06/2016 22:17

When I first started to read this, i couldn't believe how stupid and unprofessional Mark small was being, and did want the SRA to intervene, as well as the local authorities to get involved and review his contracts, but as I watch this unfold I think it important to stop, and at least think about what he can and cannot say to defend himself.

I am a solicitor, a litigator and the mother if a child with a statement/ECHP.

As a mother I will fight for what my ds deserves and is entitled to, but would I blames baker small or similar firms for fighting back and fighting nastily, no because I cannot know what their instructions are. No firm is free to disclose those without their client/leas consent. If a solicitor is aggressive then it might be them, but it might be their client. Now this is not apparently what happened here, but the problem is legal privilege and confidentiality mean sometimes we just cannot explain why we act as we do on certain cases. We can never disclose the advice that tells our clients they will lose, or concede now or whatever it may be. That is not our place, and sometimes clients will not listen or cannot be seen to.

In the world of send I would like to believe that the lea has the children's interests at heart, but I don't. And the leas are the clients. I don't think on the whole they are better or worse than other clients, but different people see the same facts and reach vastly differing conclusions, In many individual cases the case officers may act in the interests of the child, but the system doesn't, because it is not set up that way. It is adversarial, there is no money, and no resources, no specialist placements, no additional staff and experts etc. this is frustrating, annoying, and often pernicious and evil because the children suffer, but the solution is complex.

Baker small profit from that, that may be morally wrong but I do not think that it necessarily id fat cat lawyers at the expense of families, it is hard cost benefit analysis. Yes every child has a right to an education, including those with Sen and disabilities, but people can disagree about whether aba, teach or other methods work best, whether child a needs specialist provision etc. parents do want the best for their child, and it us hard, draining and emotional to get it, but in an adversarial system some you win, some you lose.

The solicitors are not the advisers on the provision, just in how best to present the case, and often how to avoid paying more for child a so child b,c,d and e get something. Don't get me wrong it shouldn't be this way, child a, b,c,d and e are all entitled but those who shout loudest get more, which can include fight hardest threaten tribunals etc.

Now I think baker small are unprofessional, and those tweets were professional suicide, and gloating, and the cover up since is awful, and offensive, but some if what I have seen attacking Mark Small since is really not that much better. We have posters here saying he represented them and did a good job but was expensive and couldn't guarantee success. Can we not accept that that is the system not the individual. When I hear costs quoted like on thus thread I am not surprised, litigation costs money, but in no litigation practice is it right to just give in on all cases. There is always one case where actually making a stand is the right thing to do.

On the case that started thus if the parents thought they had won, and the lea thought they had won that sounds like a good result fir everyone, especially the child whose interests are supposed to be at thre centre.

Posting this was downright stupid, the subsequent comments offensive, rude and in my view do bring the profession into disrepute, but the system is disreputable to start with because there is no money to provide what children are legally entitled to. That is what we should be fighting over, not whether one solicitor said something or several things he shouldn't have not how best to string him up.

Now if I were starlight or others who had personal dealings with him I may not be so generous, but I have clients in my area if law who are equally destroyed by litigation, by the stress, by the costs and by the out and out unfairness of his things are set up, and that is the problem, and that is what encourages the mindset of some solicitors to gloat etc. they shouldn't no, they shouldn't behave in ways they sometimes do, but then again they may well be acting in a way which misguidedly is seen as in the interests of their clients. Many leas were using baker small (mine included) and many therefore saw value in what he did. Would they have stopped using baker small without the press attention, I doubt it unless they were already unhappy with the service. But many now have.

I reiterate I think the tweets were really offensive, and unprofessional, and he should have stopped and apologised, but I strongly believe that he has now paid a price and the debate should be focussed in making the system work, on collaboration, and on the political battle to get proper funding for every child to get their legal entitlement, rather than the dirty tricks used not to. The fact this has grabbed attention is good, but it is good so that the SEN community can explain how it really is whether you are arguing with a school, the NHS, the LEA, Baker small or any of the other firms doing this work. Baker small is (was I hope) symptomatic of that problem, and I hope that this whole incident moves past one person doing something really wrong onto the hundreds of us trying to get something right against the very difficult odds we are dealt.

StarlightMcKenzee · 15/06/2016 22:24

You're wrong. I suffered unbelievable assault in one Local Authority, so unbelievable that I STILL cannot post about the details for fear of not being believed. Yes BS were probably instructed to do this by the LA.

What BS were NOT instructed to do was play detective when I went underground to escape the abuse, hid and moved to another authority secretly. They were NOT instructed to find where I had gone and then persuade the new LA that I was unstable and deserving of yet more abuse and convince that new LA to hire them so they could continue it.

2boysnamedR · 15/06/2016 22:24

Special needs jungle are starting a campaign - not sure for what but they do gets things out there.

If your on FB please follow them if this has touched a nerve

StarlightMcKenzee · 15/06/2016 22:26

Also, I have seen training materials that are specifically designed to dehumanise the opposing side and increase the level of hostility, fear and anger for them, both parent versions and LA versions.

So I say again, you are wrong.

2boysnamedR · 15/06/2016 22:34

I don't personally know MS so I can't wish him any ill feeling. I know of him. I know his ex employees

It's the whole exposure of the contempt in tribunal and SEN. His tweets triggered me back to my tribunal days. Right now he stands for everything that's unfair in the system.

Mostly as he is one of the biggest people profiting from the misery. Theirs a family with a kid behind those tweets. He was taking the piss. He a educated man. He knew what he was doing

whereonthestair · 15/06/2016 22:36

Starlight, I may be wrong, and what I understand happened is outrageous, and out of order, but how do you know they were not instructed to do that? I really don't want to defend them ,I don't know enough to do so, or for that matter to defend you, but they cannot reveal what their instructions were/are. It is not their information to share (neither to be fair was last weeks tribunal win as I said unthread and that is something that should be considered by the SRA and relevant lea).

Although I said I do not defend them, but cannot lynch them either other than for their own words on Twitter and elsewhere (which I do think they should be condemned for). However personally I think it is time to move this away from the sensationalist social media frenzy onto trying to actually do something, otherwise someone else will just fill the gap, and still be adversarial, and make out parents are lying, mad etc. and the children will still suffer in the end mainly because there are insufficient funds and resources

whereonthestair · 15/06/2016 22:40

And as for training materials, again that is not how I would do things or how i do in my litigation but in an adversarial system, I cannot dismiss that method as wrong either. For some clients on both sides explaining how things can go with some hostility and fear is the right thing to do. The tribunal system is not set up to be nice and fluffy. Maybe it should be, but it is not, and it is usually better to know what to expect if things go wrong.

StarlightMcKenzee · 15/06/2016 22:46

whereonthestair I still don't agree I'm afraid. This behaviour was happening well before the cuts. Many tribunals are fought on principle and have very little cost differential.

Increasingly now they are about 'Let's punish the parent for daring to disagree with us'.

Nearly all of them are about early intervention that will save the Local Authority shedloads if it is provided in a timely way.

'Cuts' cannot be used to justify appalling behaviour. Appalling behaviour is CAUSING the cuts as the real cost of what Local AUthorities need to deliver their services that children are entitled to, is fudged and pretended to be something quite different. SEN provision is a statutory service. LAs can be efficient with the WAY they deliver it (very few appear to be to me), but that is it.

ANewDayANewName · 15/06/2016 22:49

whereonthestair It is not supposed to be adversarial. It is supposed to be collaborative and always "in the best interests of the child" but it is not.

Unfortunately Stars story is just one of many from those of us who have suffered at the hands of this man and his firm. Hers is by far the worst story.

To the rest of the world, it all seems to be coming to light just over the last few days. But for the rest of us in the SEN world, we have been living and breathing this man and watching his antics for YEARS.

I have seen elsewhere on the internet a comment from a Parent Advocate who has been in "the system" since long before Baker Small. S/he stated that it has become more adversarial since his involvement. Previously LAs & parents did sit down together and collaboratively work on a child's needs. But this changed when he came on the scene.

This is why we are collectively so angry.

There is so so so much wrong with "the system". BS is just part of that system. But his (mis)conduct has finally brought the wrongness of the system to the forefront of debate. We have a long long way to go to solve this system - a system that hasn't been fit for purpose for years. This is not a social media frenzy but a chance to finally be heard and for some real changes to be made in this appalling system.

The social media frenzy is also attempting to address the real issues too whilst we are still today's news and not tomorrow's forgotten story.

ANewDayANewName · 15/06/2016 22:53

By this time next week, those of you were think we are excessive in our comments will have moved on. We will have become yesterday's news.

But for some of us, we will still be living and breathing this inadequate not fit-for-purpose system every single day of our lives.

whereonthestair · 15/06/2016 22:59

Starlight I don't want to offend in any way so I am going to bow out after this post. I respect what you do, and the support you provide others here and elsewhere and especially on the special needs boards. I don't agree with what happened, but in my case, with my child, the behaviour was and is systemic, not the behaviour of one person, solicitor and lea. It is not about cuts it is and always was about the system.

And yes leas could be efficient in how they provide things, but not without staff, and in my case no member of staff (especially therapist) lasts more than 12 months before they change and give up and go into private practice.

For what it is worth I think the cuts do cause the appalling behaviour, because as a society we no longer protect the vulnerable, no longer support each other, and somehow over the last 20 or so years have given ourselves permission to screw over our neighbours in the name of profit, success and then latterly austerity, but that is always someone else's fault. The system has made it he who shouts loudest, has the most resources, tenacity etc, and that is what in wrong and in my view needs changing.

whereonthestair · 15/06/2016 23:04

Oh and just for the record, I have a son, with a full statement, which I have fought for, I have fought the nhs for funding, I have fought to get early years funding, and I will continue to do so, I have paid for equipment I should be given, and I live in this world too. I do not disagree with many if the comments, reporting to the SRA or criticising Mark Small, but what now are you (we) wanting to achieve. That is what I want to consider rather than lynching one person.

StarlightMcKenzee · 15/06/2016 23:06

I don't disagree that the system is barbaric, caused by a great many things including the way our country and it's politics have progressed over the years.

However, outside this barbaric system there is an individual who enjoys making it more so.

He is the unintentional whistle-blower and focusing on him keeps the floodlights on the rest.

ANewDayANewName · 15/06/2016 23:11

Oh and just for the record, I have a son, with a full statement, which I have fought for

With all due respect where you are solicitor, the majority of SEN parents are not.

AugustaFinkNottle · 15/06/2016 23:30

As a mother I will fight for what my ds deserves and is entitled to, but would I blames baker small or similar firms for fighting back and fighting nastily, no because I cannot know what their instructions are. No firm is free to disclose those without their client/leas consent. If a solicitor is aggressive then it might be them, but it might be their client.

No solicitor has a duty to accept instructions to act unethically. I find it highly unlikely that, for instance, a local authority instructed Mark Small to accuse another solicitor of being emotive for spelling out the prejudice a child would suffer as a result of delay in a tribunal hearing. I also doubt that they tell him to quote reams of irrelevant law in his defences, which he does routinely - probably to try to intimidate parents. Plus, of course, absolutely no-one can force a solicitor accept instructions in the first place in a civil case. If Small's LA clients really have been telling him to act that way, he could always have refused. I have heard stories of at least one ex employee who said he left because he disliked the firm's ethics.

As for the rest of your first post: I agree that lack of money is a major issue in SEN. However, that doesn't account for the fact that LAs regularly fail to detail and specify support in EHCPs. It wouldn't cost them any more to issue a Plan that complies with the law than the present system - in fact, it could save them money by helping them avoid tribunal appeals.

We have posters here saying he represented them and did a good job but was expensive and couldn't guarantee success

No, we don't. We have one poster saying she talked to him and he seemed OK, but she couldn't afford to instruct him.

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SoThatHappened · 15/06/2016 23:34

Did you need to ask if it is appropriate when in your first post you acknowledge that it had been blocked Confused

Kind of says it all.

And now you have just brought more attention to it by this thread and by posting the re-tweet. Why on earth would you publicise it more when you are asking if it is meant to be confidential.

Jeremysfavouriteaunt · 15/06/2016 23:40

I was blocked too as were countless there for asking MS to stop being so nasty and to think about what he was saying. I am quoted as trying to stop 'the train wreck' as it unfolded.

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