To think that students shouldn't be making teachers cry FFS!.

[Theydontknowweknowtheyknow]

...and that the school system is essentially fucked because teachers have too many pressures and are treated like crap?

DS is not good at Maths. He's not badly behaved but is not good at Maths hence he is stuck in a set where the kids tend to be badly behaved.

The teacher is obviously not a native English speaker but DS says he is perfectly understandable. His classmates however are constantly teasing this poor man about his English. It became so bad today that the teacher actually cried and then lost it and yelled at the kids that he spoke 5 languages and they only spoke one.

I feel so sorry for this guy. He must be at the end of his tether but how can he possibly teach and be effective with 30 students, all the marking, planning and politics. I feel like it's an impossible task.

But what can the government/society do to make teachers' lives easier, especially when you consider the drop out rate or is it just inevitable that with so little money and so many children to educate that the school system is essentially fucked?

[minifingerz]

Re: class sizes, for the majority of children a larger class wouldn't be a problem if there were no behaviour issues and there was a parity of effort between the teacher and the learner. This is evident in many grammar schools, where kids achieve highly in large classes.

But in classes where there are behaviour management problems? No - it absolutely doesn't make sense.

[katemiddletonsnudeheels]

Some classes do become extremely skilled at 'flustering' the teacher. I had a class like this two years ago; it was horrible.

SLT need to show they have your back. As an nqt I had a HOD who would come in and tell the class off but it was really me she was telling off, and they knew it!

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

I remember DD's class of 9 year olds driving a young teacher to tears and ultimately to another school. I used to volunteer as a parent helper, and while there were three pretty horrible little boys, the rest were nice kids.

She used to give me the three as my science group when I went in to help. They were hard work, but they were 9 for goodness sake, it wasn't that hard to get them engaged.

I do think that resilience should be a factor in the selection process for teacher training.

[echt]

She used to give me the three as my science group when I went in to help.hmm They were hard work, but they were 9 for goodness sake, it wasn't that hard to get them engaged.

Because you were 1:3, whereas the teacher, before you came along, was 1:30.

Not sure why you were a parent helper in your DD's class though.

[noblegiraffe]

Tinkly, I expect your teacher could have engaged three boys too. There were only three of them when you had them.

The PGCE is an endurance test, you can't get through it without being pretty bloody resilient.

[HostaFireandIce]

they were 9 for goodness sake, it wasn't that hard to get them engaged.
Yes, year 9 are typically the easiest year group to get engaged

[katemiddletonsnudeheels]

YY echt

Most children are lovely in small group settings or individually.

[katemiddletonsnudeheels]

Hosta I think she meant they were 9 years old, not year 9.

[EveryoneElsie]

I'm not sure many people are familiar with group dynamics. Its the reason schools split some kids up and put others together.

Being derisive of the teacher when faced with a determined clique is not helpful. Plus those kids often relish attention - thats why they behave the way they do in the first place.
If you had swapped places with the teacher the outcome would have been identical.

[WhatamessIgotinto]

I'm a TA. Some of the behaviour I've seen in a 'naice' school is appalling. Seeing a 10 year old go up behind a teacher and mimic having sex with her whilst saying he'd love to 'give her one up the arse' is not something I expect to see in class. When the parents were told about this what did they say? 'Well boys will be boys'. Truly fucking awful and why teachers are not sobbing 24 hours a day, I don't know.

[minifingerz]

"They were hard work, but they were 9 for goodness sake, it wasn't that hard to get them engaged"

There's always some parent who thinks they know how to do your job better than you do.

[katemiddletonsnudeheels]

I once taught a very troubled little boy who had a really upsetting background. His parents had died in horrible circumstances and he'd been in and out of care.

His party trick was trashing the classroom. He would suddenly get his tablet out and watch a film. When told to put it away, he'd run round, grabbing other kids' exercise books from them and ripping them up

I saw him once in town on a freezing cold, dark November night when it was tipping down with rain and he only had a light t shirt on. I chatted to him for a bit and was genuinely worried about his wellbeing so gave him a lift home (it was a good twenty minutes walk away.) During that time he chatted to me and I saw the 'person' if you like.

'He'll be eating out of the palm of my hand Monday!' I thought confidently.

Reader - he was not!

[HostaFireandIce]

Katemiddletonsnudeheels that makes a bit more sense! Mind you, I've taught 10 year olds who could try the patience of a saint.
And yes, I've often taught pupils about whom I have thought, if you were the only child I had to teach, I'd enjoy that - it's managing you in a class with 31 others that makes you a pain.

[Gide]

Challenge these kids and many parents will place the blame at ten door of the 'shit teacher'

I fought for years to get rid of a shit teacher (who had endless support from various people, union, me, friends, peers) so sadly, yes, there are some epically shit teachers who simply shouldn't be in the profession.

Conversely, yes, kids will push and push and in some schools, the behaviour is downright awful. There is endless bullying of teachers by kids who just don't give a shit, want to leave as soon as possible and whose parents don't care. I was shouted down on another forum about removing the main disruptive element from a class. I fail to see why 24 kids should suffer rubbish lessons while a poor teacher deals with one or two idiots.

I agree with previous posters, get on the phone to parents, follow up everything and get management to back up decisions, zero tolerance. It is a shame the whole marking issue has taken over the world, every spare second is taken up doing this, there's no time for anything else, so really robust systems are essential, including parental support.

[katemiddletonsnudeheels]

Year 9s did used to be famous for being absolute grotbags. I think now it's more year 8!

[thecatfromjapan]

echt thank you! I just find the Hattie cult's assertion that class size has no impact utterly incredible. It's good to see research taking it apart.

[HostaFireandIce]

The OP's xenophobic example is interesting too. I often saw that the teachers for whom English was a second language got a particularly hard time. We had one excellent Science teacher who was from Germany. She had very good subject knowledge, experience and control of a class, but if you asked any pupil what they thought of her, they would say, "Can't understand a word she says". "But her English is perfect and she barely has an accent" "Nope, can't understand her." They'd get their parents to write in and complain too!

[HerRoyalNotness]

I'm thinking after reading this thread I'm glad our DC are in the US for schooling. They run our school like a military operation. 1200 kids in elementary, no running in corridors or talking, behaving properly, they take a firm stance. They have a class with a special teacher where they send DC with behavioural/attitude problems. dS1 has been in it for a week. We came down hard on him, teachers are in charge, you do what they say. They get behaviour marks and this affects their grade, off to principals office if they won't calm down. Class sizes limited to 23. Both DC had less than 20 in their classes this year.

Tbh, we back up the teachers authority, if you have parents that don't, there needs to be sanctions teachers can use to keep them in line.

[HostaFireandIce]

And yes, I came to dislike Year 8s more than Year 9s. Old enough to think they're hilarious, but not quite old enough to be hilarious.

[Xenadog]

I'm a teacher and I've taught in various schools in tough areas and was always told I had excellent behaviour management skills. Eight years ago I left state ed because I was sick of the daily battles and grind. Yes I could get the kids to behave and to make progress but they didn't deserve my best efforts as it was killing me and destroying my home life.

I've moved into the indie sector which still has its share of kids who will push the boundaries but the difference is the kids have a desire to learn, make progress and understand the value of education. Those who don't are sent packing. We have small classes too which obviously helps.

In a nut shell yes a teacher needs to have behaviour management skills but if you go to work and are systematically and routinely bullied every day then life must be hell.

Too many young people (and their families) don't understand the value of an education and so they play up and victimise their teachers. I have seen this happen on several occasions and it is horrible.

[CodyKing]

"I think years ago a lot of these children would have gone to a special school*

Nope I didn't mean SN schools I mean there were centres for children who couldn't behave - there still are a few where the kids get one to one education. Bit not enough - sometimes the threat was enough!

I'd agree SN does not mean behaviour problems -

Some kids are just out for the attention - I'd video it and show the parents there true colours

Why not a live Web cam?

My DC are well behaved but I'd like to see it for myself because I truly don't believe teachers tell the whole story to parents

Maybe an automatic text of behaviour?

Maybe sign the parents up to a code of conduct or support?

Several of DD classmates have been taken out of detention because mommies go on to complain! When a few home truths wouldn't go amiss

[HolisticMama13]

As a teacher in a Pupil Referral Unit I work with kids who demonstrate some pretty hard core behaviour so I sympathise.

BUT he isn't being supported by the school. Do the school know what his classes are like?

I'd flag it up with the head of department. They'll likely drop in unannounced & do some lesson observations. And don't feel like you're getting the teacher into trouble. It's effecting your sons eduction. Xx

[kesstrel]

But are we, as parents, willing to support the kind of strong, whole-school behaviour policies, enforced by the school's senior leadership, that can redress this problem? I think there are a lot of parents who are very uncomfortable with the idea of Saturday detentions and supervised isolation rooms, pupil referral units, and permanent exclusion as a final resort. For that matter, there seem to be a proportion of teachers who feel the same way.

[MissMargie]

Children spend 13 years in school, for parents to be happy with a half baked outcome, ie some education but not good education, due to disruption in classes is sad imv. And no opportunity to turn children round, encourage them to have ambition, as there is no method of discipline, is failing the tax payer and obviously the child.

[CodyKing]

I think there are a lot of parents who are very uncomfortable with the idea of Saturday detentions and supervised isolation rooms, pupil referral units, and permanent exclusion as a final resort.

Can you explain why? What alternative do you suggest?