To think music/art/drama etc should be optional at schools?

[LunaLoveg00d]

I have one child who is in his second year at secondary school (Scotland) who is so un-musical it is not true. He cannot carry a tune in a bucket, has zero interest in music, cannot differentiate between a tuba or a violin when he hears it and has never shown any interest in playing an instrument. We have just had his end of year report which on the whole is VERY positive apart from the music/art reports which basically say he is unhappy in the class, makes some effort but has a long way to go and his ability is very low. He is very down about the fact he has to endure 2 periods a week of compulsory music and another of art for another year before he can drop them. Drama he enjoys a bit more, but he has very little interest in it either.

i think the problem I have with these "talent" subjects is that unlike the traditional maths/english/science, they can only be taught to some extent. Even the best teachers in the world are not going to turn a child with zero artistic or musical talent into Picasso or Mozart. Or even someone who could pass an exam in it. On the flip side, good teachers can support and teach most children (obviously excluding some with SEN) to achieve passes in English, Maths, Science, History etc.

So would it not be better to leave the talent subjects at secondary to those who have ability in them?

I kind of agree with you, op (and I am 100% arts-based, working in a creative career.) The curriculum, by its nature, squeezes a lot of the pleasure out of things that should be enjoyable. I don't know what the answer is - obviously, as pp have said, it's very important to give these subjects plenty of curriculum time - but a freer approach to their application would be much better. It's ironic that creative subjects are often presented to children with such a lack of creativity.

As an aside, I feel the same about PE, which I know is a deeply unpopular opinion. I HATED school sports, and the humiliation I felt in PE lessons had a lasting effect on me as well as giving me a huge aversion to sport. I now have 2 teenage DCs who feel pretty much the same. I understand the importance of exercise and think it should definitely be in the curriculum, but why they can't find a more imaginative, positive and inclusive way of doing that (yoga/zumba/circuit training/whatever) than bloody netball, hockey and rounders.

Few points: on his school report they are graded for effort and behaviour - he is scoring good or excellent across the board (even in Art and Music) so he is trying his best, making an effort and behaving well in classes he does not like and is rubbish at. It is in the teacher's comments under the boxes that the lack of progress shines through. They are not graded on ability at this stage.

In Music, the main elements of the course are listed as "performance, composition, understanding music and music literacy". This is a very strong practical bias and although there is mention of "listening to a variety of musical styles", it is 80% about playing keyboards, doing chords on a guitar, writing your own musical compositions and reading music. This is also in sharp contrast to other practical subjects like Home Ec - they have 100 minutes of that a week too, but they have 50 minutes in a classroom setting learning about food hygiene or nutrition, and 50 minutes in the kitchen or sewing room. Same with Art, it's all "doing" stuff rather than teachers exposing them to different styles or painting or teaching them about the major artistic movements or artists. This isn't a balanced education in Music or Art at all really. This is in a school which was praised very highly by inspectors, so it's not that the school is not teaching "well" according to what government expects or planning lessons poorly.

I also think that you can have an appreciation of Art and Music without being able to do it yourself but this over-emphasis on the practical aspects is just turning off children with no natural talent for it. It;s like trying to ram a square peg into a round hole - eventually you might make it fit, but you'll have a very deformed peg who would be much happier in the round hole next door.

I feel the same about PE, which I know is a deeply unpopular opinion

Son is very non-sporty too, but the PE department have recognised that not all children are sporty and cater for this well. Son struggles hugely with coordination - took a long time to learn to tie his shoelaces, his writing is dreadful and he can't catch a ball. He was at one stage assessed for dyspraxia but although the Occupational Therapist thought he was probably on the milder end of the spectrum, he wasn't "bad" enough for a formal diagnosis.

He struggled hugely in team sports, mostly because the other children know he's rubbish and get frustrated with him. He is much happier exercising on his own, and in PE they are allowed to make choices, so he opts for running on the treadmill or using the rowing machine. He will also happily participate in zumba or aerobics classes. The PE department seem to have recognised that forcing children into hockey or football when they don't enjoy it and find it very difficult to get involved is counter productive and can turn people off sport for life. I think many of us have very bad memories of similar lessons from our schooldays.

Actually after reading your last post I agree wholeheartedly with you and I'm sorry I insinuated you were being a wee bit precious about him not getting top marks that was snidey sorry

I think it's very good for kids to have exposure to these things until age 12-13; but it's lousy to be forced to exhibit or perform. Teachers made me sing so then other kids openly laughed at me on a regular basis.

Also can't agree with anyone who tries to say that everyone can become competent with practice. I never stopped singing and I have improved, but Folk still gasp & sneer when they hear me. About the same experience playing musical instruments.

Am Very good at math, though. No link to music at all for me.

I think my son would be extras tic at thought that he could drop English and maths because he isn't 'talented' at them !!

YABU

xpost & ps... yes, "trying your best".

It is very dispiriting to hear instruction, carefully implement every single instruction, result seems ok to you. Then the teacher comes up and very slowly & precisely repeats all the instructions to you. So it's obvious that they think you must not have heard a word, you're doing so badly. You tell them it's exactly what you were trying to do -- and the teacher looks baffled & backs off with a hand-wave like they think you're a turnip brain.

The lesson you soon learn is that No Matter How Hard You Try you are never going to get this right.

That was my experience with many things, especially tennis!

Didn't put me off completely, I still try very hard at a few things where I enjoy the challenge. But in private. No amount of tuition is ever going to make me better.

I was pretty academic and quite a swot but I hated art. I used to piss about, get bored, thrown out the classroom etc. I just found it so tedious. I would rather have done my Maths homework!

It's horrible being a straight A student in everything else but getting D or E in art and music because you just aren't artistic and no matter how long you try to draw an apple it still looks like a wonky ball with a stick on top.

Well I was that straight A student and I couldn't disagree more. Art taught me that I wasn't naturally gifted at everything, that the more I put in the more I would get out (and vice versa) and that perfection isn't everything.

Far better for a gifted student to learn to fail in first year art than to do it in their uni finals!

And that repeated 'failure' formed my attitude to so many things in my life, particularly my creative writing. I'm about to finish my first book, which I've only been able to do by freeing myself from my own expectation that everything I write has to be perfect. The experience sucked at the time but I believe it was formative.

In Islamic art, there's always a mistake - that's to remind us that only God is perfect. That is the perfect attitude for all creative/problem solving/innovation endeavours - it will never be perfect but it might be good enough and then you try again and make it better.

it is very dispiriting to hear instruction, carefully implement every single instruction, result seems ok to you. Then the teacher comes up and very slowly & precisely repeats all the instructions to you. So it's obvious that they think you must not have heard a word, you're doing so badly.

Exactly - the music report says "X struggled with the task of writing his musical composition but has now come up with a reasonably good melody line" and "several attempts at writing his composition" and "must work on his musical literacy". This is a bright child who usually has no problem in following spoken or written instructions and doesn't have to be told twice. I think it's VERY unrealistic to expect children with no musical talent to be composing melodies.

It's heartening to hear that your son's school has that approach to PE Luna, though frustrating that it hasn't been adopted across the board. I wish my DCs school were as enlightened.

I also think that you can have an appreciation of Art and Music without being able to do it yourself but this over-emphasis on the practical aspects is just turning off children with no natural talent for it. It;s like trying to ram a square peg into a round hole - eventually you might make it fit, but you'll have a very deformed peg who would be much happier in the round hole next door.
Agree with this 100%.

I disagree. I hated maths and was rubbish but still had to do it. Learning about arts and culture is crucial, as appreciating and understanding it is a big part of adult life. Drama builds confidence in public speaking and performance. Music also. Obviously it depends on the school but I would argue just because your DC isn't the next Picasso or Mozart doesn't mean it's a waste of time. Just my 2 cents.

Yes Purple he's good isn't he?

OP did you watch the film link I posted for you?

I think it's VERY unrealistic to expect children with no musical talent to be composing melodies.

Except your son's report says that he struggled but he did manage to do it with perseverance.

I loathe Ken Robinson. Most of his blather seems to about how clever he was to sell his UK property in '89 before the house price crash and how marvelous USA was and if only he could live there forever.

DH less able to multi-task makes it much easier for him to get anything done when kids are acting up, he can just tune them out!!

Yabu. The arts are just as important as the more 'academic' subjects. And they teach children skills like thinking creatively, adapting your approach etc that help them with other curriculum subjects. I wouldn't focus on grades but try and find out what it is in particular he's not enjoying - does he feel it's it too hard for eg.

Totally disagree. You don't just learn to make music or art, you learn about the history, the methods, the tools etc and you don't need talent to expand your general knowledge.

I also wouldn't be surprised if it is the way it is taught that is not very engaging. How lessons are taught for inspection and how they are taught the rest of the time van be very different ime.

Wonderful wonderful posters supporting music in the curriculum! Thank you. I am a music teacher (I have worked in a scottish secondary school OP) and I have come across this attitude a few times.

OP if your son spent even just 5 mins a day playing those chords on the guitar he would make progress. 30 mins a day and he might find he has a talent. Music is hard work. Most of the kids who do well are prepared to put in the hours. Nothing against the kids who prefer football or maths, but we all know you don't just wake up a professional footballer. Same with music.

Has he tried another instrument? Drumming is also popular with teenagers, and very accessible in scottish secondary schools.

It's so great that all the posters are supporting music in schools. Music departments thrive on this support and we really appreciate it.

Basic composition is about rules though Luna. If your DS learns the chords and the principles behind melody, it's perfectly possible for him to compose something half decent without a scrap of natural aptitude.

"Imo it's doing a disservice to those that excell at art/music/drama by saying that anyone can be taught to be good at art/taught to sing."

No, because the point is that anyone can be taught to be functional at those and talent is what takes it to the next level.

We don't expect it in other subjects, so why those ones?

We teach everyone to read and write without expectations of them all becoming the next great novelist or poet laureate.

When I was at school, I was like your son - very academic, but rubbish at everything practical. I hated those subjects with a passion, and remember feeling useless at them. Now I'm a secondary school teacher (in an academic subject), and I'm so glad I was forced to do things I wasn't good at. What it did was give me empathy. When I'm having to explain YET AGAIN a concept that I think is simple but that my students are struggling with, I remember how it felt to not be able to catch a ball - something that other people found easy and I didn't. It makes me a much better teacher (and person) to know how it feels to fail at something and not always be top.

I strongly disagree that you cannot teach music to children without natural talent. The vast majority of learning an instrument, for example, is practice and an understanding of the "rules". Music is essentially maths with emotion.

I was that straight A student who was rubbish at PE and art and, to be honest, I think it was good for me to struggle at something. The sentence in your ds's report about the melody sounds very encouraging to me. He struggled, but in the end he achieved something.

I was also completely tone deaf until I started learning the piano at 10. Miraculously, after a few years I could sing in tune. I taught myself to play a second instrument as a teenager and learned to pick out tunes. Recently I have started learning to play the cello as an adult and my ear has improved even more, because it's very difficult to play a cello in tune! None of this is natural talent. It's all good teaching and hard work. Doubtless if I had put so much effort into art I wouldn't still be totally rubbish at it...

I disagree tbh.
These subjects are already dumbed down enough for those who want to do them, who wouldn't necessarily get a chance outside school.
Offering a choice will mean fewer taking it up and no classes if too few opt.
As part of their general education at KS3 Art is a good part and they get to drop it at options stage.
Plenty people don't like maths or Science which are equally as unimportant to some peoples future careers, but you can't opt out of these even at GCSE level.
I'm sorry your ds doesn't like these subjects, but maybe nearer the time he can have a count down to the end, but also stress to him whilst he may not be good at these subjects they are part of his education and he will never need to go any further than this basic introduction to the subjects.