To think this was dangerous and shouldn't be done ?

[lisalisa]

I've been chewing this over for hours and after the initial excitement was over and I've researched the species, I'm left with the feeling that this was an incredible risk with our safety that was taken today . In this era of health and safety in
Very surprised it "passed" and was rush assessed.
Basically I was at a small farm today - a kind of children's open farm where there are goats , lambs and chickens to let and feed - with my two children today .
Announcements are generally made over a megaphone of feedings or events and this one generated some excitement . There was a snake that they were exhibiting in the grass just by the car park that was very rarely allowed out of its enclosure but was allowed out today. The farm was quite quiet no more than about a dozen people I'd say . All of us crossed the car park where there was a small field . I can't remember what separates the car park from
The field - it was either nothing or it was a low bar - thigh height . In the field was a very large snake just gliding slowly around. There were two handlers with it - I say handlers but they were not specialists . At least one was a young slight girl who's been doing the rabbit feeds just before and the chicken feeds earlier . I think she was just s general farm employee.

The snake was 22 ft long - an African Rock Python . It glided around the field parallel to us for a while no more than a foot away . The handler Explained it was a dangerous and aggressive snake and would attach unprovoked even f not hungry . It was no more than a foot away from us with either no barrier st all between us or just a bar I can't remember . We were all quite spellbound and watched it until the handlers put it away.
It was only when I came home and googled to discover more about the snake that I clicked what a dangerous snake iny is . In a zoo where they are used to such species you woukdnh be invited so Close to one with no proper barrier I'm sure. Snakes are always in their vicariously for a reason. I'm upset and puzzled2 by this as I feel the farm put our safety at risk. If that snake chose to move quickly towards us bearingg in mind it weighed over 100kg and was 22 feet we would not have stood a chance .

AIBU to contact the farm and ask for their opinion on this?

I used to do snake talks at a zoo. Not with snakes that size though, and I certainly wouldn't see myself as an expert.

We always gave a warning about washing your hands - generally done as a joke so you didn't come across as being too dogmatic but we always pointed out that snakes have a better sense of smell than sight so you'd be better off not smelling like your pet hamster. Yes, they absolutely should have done this.

We never put ours on the floor because they are bloody fast when they want to be. You are not going to outrun it if it's decided to go, and they can get into some surprisingly small spaces. Having said that, we didn't have an outside area with a barrier so if we took them out we had to be able to hold on to them. I can't really picture the barrier so can't say whether the snake would be easily able to get over it quickly. Ours were noticeably more alert when outside though - loads of novel smells and movement to attract their attention, I found it far more stressful to manage a handling session outside then in our indoor venue.

We didn't handle them too soon after feeding as our reptile staff had advised us it could make them uncomfortable and grouchy so if it was very recently fed then there's a chance that it might result in a grumpy rather than a calm snake. And I have worries about the welfare - if it's cold then that's not great for the animal trying to digest a meal, and if it's warm, it's more alert and active.

My biggest concern though is that I did handle, regularly, two six foot pythons. They were bloody heavy and after twenty minutes of holding them my back and legs ached. The big snakes in the reptile house could only picked up by several people working together - two people just wouldn't cut it. When their enclosure was being cleaned out (before the zoo opened) EU were let out to roam around the public exhibit area and when it came to putting them back, they were too heavy to be lifted completely off the floor, they had to be sort of partly hauled back in, and left to move back in on their own. Two staff members with a snake that big? How did they move it out there and if something were to happen? How do they hope to control it? Snakes are seriously strong and I doubt two staff would stand a chance. I speak from experience of having one arm pinned to my side by a six foot long snake and being completely unable to move it, even with my other arm free...

I'd be uncomfortable with this, unless the barrier was higher or more solid than I am picturing. And I love snakes and worked with them for 12 years, including managing their interactions with the public.

thank you babybythesea its good to hear from someone with professional experience. The barrier was just a bar if you can picture that a few inches thick - nothing underneath it at all. It wasn't supposed by looking at it to be a barrier to anything ( certainly not a dangerous animal) but just to demark the end of the car park so cars didn't go on the field by mistake.

So what do you think? This was dangerous/shouldn't be repeated by the farm? You've kind of vindicated my instinctive concerns that if anything were to go wrong two keepers wouldn't really stand a chance. Surely that alone is reason not to exhibit a large snake like this in such a way?

Also re the weather it was very warm in London yesterday - up to about 24C I think.

Oh and they moved it back by putting it in a dustbin type thing. They held the bin lid open ( it was one of those massive compost type bins) and encouraged it to go in with a type of stick with steel bits. The coils kept coming up as the snake tried to come out but they kept squeezing it back in and pushing and eventually put the lid on with rocks on top and the compost bin was on wheels which they then wheeled away. Both keepers sweating afterwards - I remember that .

however they are also pretty common in their native environments and the number of deaths confirmed is VERY low indeed

Quite possibly, but not because the snakes aren't interested. Where I grew up in West Africa, they did attack small children (usually rescued but badly injured), and domestic animals, which was reported in the media. Rural people would generally leave food for them as a disincentive to come looking for prey in villages.

My sister and I once visited a Uni zoology department whose pregnant ARP took 6 men to hold her up (with difficulty). We were very firmly told not to get too close. The attitude there seemed to be to treat the ARP as a danger to all, and a real danger to any smaller animal (like 6 year old me).

They were often found basking on rural roads (the tarmac heated up and made a nice snake sun lounger) and not even an adult would approach to try and move them. If I saw one slithering about a field I would run, and fast.

Did you say you have a picture of the barrier too OP?

OP I'm really glad some knowledgeable people have come on here to back you up and reassure you that your instincts were correct. I can't believe the number of narky comments you got at first or indeed the number of snake experts apparently on this site

Honestly, no, I'm not sure this is a safe way to handle the animal, and I have some reservations about the welfare as well.
As a side note, but relevant, with our six footers, we were told never ever to wear them around our necks. When we carried them around, we wrapped them round our waist not across our shoulders. The reason being that if the snake felt stressed or even just in danger of slipping, it would constrict, not necessarily to hurt you but possibly even just to make itself feel more secure. And that if it constricted round your waist, you had your hands free and in a good position to support it underneath and help both yourself and the snake. If it constricted round your neck, your hands are in a less convenient position but more relevant for this, the more you pulled at it, the more stressed the animal would become and the tighter it would cling. And if it's round your neck, you don't have long for that to become a fatal situation (also taking into account the fact that you would be stressed and panicking). So I always encourage my kids to touch snakes when we do petting things but I have never allowed anyone to put one round their necks.
But my point is that if our expert staff were so adamant that in a life and death situation (albeit a highly highly unlikely one) we would be at risk from a six foot snake, then the risk from a bigger and therefore stronger snake is considerably greater.
And actually, it defeats the purpose. What you want is to send people away going "Wow, snakes are absolutely amazing animals, and not to be vilified and demonised, and yes, they need treating with respect but then so does every other living animal." Producing something that is so big you can't really have a hope of controlling it, and using fear to help you manage the interaction (stay back folks, this one is aggressive) is so completely counter-productive, and if it is in fact your intention, then that in itself is questionable and needs to be addressed.

This is what I love about Mumsnet. You get a thread about a really rare snake being set loose in an English field. And then there are people with real expertise of handling or growing up with said snakes who turn up and give you an informed view. I mean this genuinely: it's absolutely brilliant!

I'm 5 foot 3 and 8 stone wet through and I handle snakes like this. She certainly could be a handler. ARP aren't excruciatingly aggressive in captivity but at the end of the day you chose to stand there. Risk assess yourself in my opinion. I have large snakes all over my home and you have to make your own call.

I agree wholeheartedly in having an appropriate barrier however but more for the snake's safety in my opinion. It's very unlikely the snake was actually that length in captivity although could be possible, they tend to add a few feet on for some reason (to impress I suppose).

A bite from one would be nasty though. When they said it would attack they wouldn't have meant to eat or swallow, just to strike out and bite. It's not going to try and eat children but if it did it's going to take a long time, they don't just swallow quick in one go, you could kill the snake ages before they even got past the feet.

actually, it defeats the purpose. What you want is to send people away going "Wow, snakes are absolutely amazing animals, and not to be vilified and demonised, and yes, they need treating with respect but then so does every other living animal."

I agree wholeheartedly they need to sort out their safety arrangements so people get a positive message and not demonise them (people are scared as it is lol)

Im not sure about the whole 'well you chose to see it' thing, or telling someone they shouldn't be making a fuss as the OP should 'risk assess yourself'.

The OP did risk assess but based on false assumptions which she didn't and couldn't know until she was actually in the situation. She made the perfectly reasonable assumption that the staff at the farm were fully trained for every animal they had there. She also made the reasonable assumption that the farm had animal welfare and human safety as their top priority, and the farm would not be asking visitors to go have a look at a snake which turned out to be massive and under questionable circumstances (at best).

And it takes a while to untangle all of those and realise that no, this situation isn't quite right and actually, yes, this is a much more risky situation than the farm / employees are communicating.

So she then wants to gather advice from more experienced people and find out how and who to talk to about her concerns, with the aim of making sure this 'showcasing' of the snake is changed.

Sounds very sensible to me.

I agree. If you choose to go and look at a tiger at a zoo, you assume they have everything in place so that it can't reach you or escape. If it can, that doesn't make it your fault because you chose to go and look at it!

I think we need to see the barrier really.

Boo avenue no pics of barrier I can post as the only one has my children in it . It wasn't a barrier just a pole horizontally of s few inches thick about thigh height to me . It's there to mark a boundary between the car park and field. Best thought of as a pole on its side ( nothing above or below it ) on supports at each end of the field to hold it up . It's not s barrier at all

The OP has explained the barrier above- if I've understood correctly, it's nothing more than the the metal bar at the end of a carpark that is at car bumper height! There's nothing underneath except air.

Oops x-post, sorry.

Walking blind - I think you and I would get on! However, I don't necessarily agree that 'you have to make your own call.' At home, absolutely, and if you have friends over they are to a certain extent responsible for themselves. But the same rules just don't apply if you are talking about members of the public at somewhere like a zoo. They expect you to be the expert, so to have considered all risks and acted accordingly. Some of them may be terrified but looking to overcome that, some may not have seen a live snake before and be looking to you to provide guidance. They don't know you as a mate, they are trusting the judgement of the organisation and you as a professional and that sets up the interaction differently. As a basic example, you may choose to let a friend take control of a snake. As a keeper, I wouldn't. apart from anything else, if something happens to the animal because I failed to manage the situation, I'd be gutted and my professional judgement would rightly be questioned. And if something happens to the person, the reputation of the organisation and the future of being allowed any sort of public demonstrations like this are called into question.
I think you have to be far stricter when you are something like a zoo than you would be if you are just inviting someone into your home to see your pets.

And I'd say no, the barrier isn't adequate. If the snake wants to head off underneath it at speed, your chances of containing the animal aren't great. And at the very least you end up causing panic and reinforcing the idea that snakes are dangerous when you ought to be creating a positive attitude.

I guess the only adequate barrier for an animal like this would be a high solid wall ideally out of sheet material.

No reply yet from either of the professional organisations I've emailed - I do hope one of them replies

Absolutely not an appropriate barrier between the snake and the public. I must admit when you said thigh high I imagined a solid barrier. It could very easily have gone under the barrier.
I wouldn't be unduly concerned with aggression as even among the species with reputations for being aggressive it's very common to find very docile specimens. I would imagine such an animal would be chosen for a display like this.
I keep very many snakes including large pythons and there are some of my animals whom I would feel confident allowing contact with the public and some whom I wouldn't consider it for a second. The most tame and intelligent snake I have is a mainland reticulated python who behaves like a cat. I'd have no qualms about displaying him to the public but would never allow him free reign without an adequate barrier. For his safety as much as that of others.
I'm also very petite by the way and am often seen feeding small furries too, I'm definitely a safe handler of large reptiles though.

It is utterly ridiculous to say the OP should have done a risk assessment & say she chose to go and see it. It's a bloody petting zoo for god sake, not a rare wildlife trip. Zoos, farms etc for children should not require the general public to risk assess each animal. Don't be daft.

I've been to the Australia Zoo & places like that, I've handled some huge & beautiful snakes, but I trusted the staff/management not to be putting our lives at risk. Some of them were HUGE and out on the grass like that. I apologise to the handlers on here, but a farm/petting zoo in London doing this display doesn't fill me with confidence.

Yanbu