To think that if you expect adult behaviour you need to treat the person as an adult?

[OneMagnumisneverenough]

Not a huge deal, but got an email yesterday from Scouts regarding my younger son's volunteering with the beavers saying that his performance with them had been disappointing and he hadn't got sufficiently involved so that they weren't signing him off at the moment but instead giving him some weeks to show an improvement. We've been involved in Scouts since Beavers and I have nothing but praise and respect for the leaders who give up their time for the children.

Fair enough, I spoke to him and he hasn't been proactive so I explained that he should be going to the leaders and asking what they wanted him to do or seeing something that needed done and asking if they wanted him to do it. However, he also said that they didn't tell him what they wanted and he felt unsure and doesn't really know how to speak to or deal with small children.

He is also a teenager and can at times have that teenage "can't be bothered" look, I also said to him that that can be interpreted as not wanting to get involved and could put people of approaching him.

Anyway, I emailed back apologising and saying that he'd agreed to be more proactive and also said that I didn't want to make excuses but that he had felt shy and unsure and in teenagers that can manifest itself into a certain demeanor. None of the regular leaders at the beavers have teenagers yet.

Thinking about it later I realised that I hadn't asked my son if they'd spoken to him about it so I checked this morning and it turns out they haven't.

He's been going since last August (way over the 6 months he asked for, has missed one meeting due to the fact it was a hill climb and he'd only just finished his expedition the day before and his feet were blistered.

So, my feeling is that they have plenty of opportunity to make him aware of what they expect (i.e. mature behaviour in being pro active) but when he hasn't demonstrated this they come straight to his parents instead of him. AIBU to think they should have spoken to him first?

Those are great suggestions (apart from the chippy one as there is only one chippy in a 5 mile radius so it might be difficult :) ) but I think they have everything planned out for the rest of the year though we haven't been given the plan for the term hence the confusion the other week. Ours schools break up at the end of June so I think there are only 4 more weeks including tonight.

I'm not cross, well not with them anyway, just a bit disappointed that it's come to this really. I'm aware that DS can have a "I don't really want to be here demeanor" sometimes, given previous positive reports about him, I thought that that was reserved for his family only. I was clearly wrong. I had actually noticed that DS2 didn't seem to be featuring in many of the photos of the activities in the same way that DS1 had and I'd almost asked they other week if they could make sure he was in a few so that he can use them for his evidence file. Maybe if I had it would have flushed this out slightly earlier. Well, we are where we are and he'll just have to deal with that.

Just a thought - does your son actually wanthis DoE award and/or to be helping at Beavers? If he isn't enjoying it for whatever reason it might explain his uncharacteristic failure to engage?

Yes he wants the award, he's completed everything else except his presentation about the expedition. I don't think he particularly wanted the Beavers but that's where he was allocated. I just think a lot of it stems from being uncomfortable with the little ones and not really knowing what to do. If he'd opened his mouth and explained or asked then someone would have been able to help him, but instead I think he just put his head down and thought if he turned up every week and got through it it would be fine. It was something to be endured rather than enjoyed iyswim?

Actually Magnum, I think you're right. If things were so bad that they don't want to sign him off then you really should have been told before now. Its on a par with bad news at parents evening - real problems should be dealt with sooner.

I also think their expectations might be a bit high for a 14 year old DofE bronze. If he's actually helped at camps as well as turning up every week they're a bit mean not to sign. If he does silver or gold he might want to do something completely different though.

DS did say that he wasn't sure why they wouldn't sign him off as what did it matter to them? We had a conversation about integrity and doing the right thing as you believe it so it wasn't all wasted. Being honest, I'd rather they didn't sign him off without being happy about it as in a way they've wasted his time too as he's got nothing out of the experience either. If we'd been made aware of this earlier then maybe everyone could have benefited more.

It's a shame all round I think.

I feel now after thinking about it that I wish I'd sent a slightly different email but we'll see what happens tonight.

It sounds quite hard on your DS - he's only 14 and if you're not naturally good at that sort of thing then it would be hard to do it.

Did the email say exactly what they expected from your DS in order to get signed off?

As you're now involved it may be worth arranging a session with the person who has sent this for the 3 of you to clarify exactly what DS needs to do. It may be a case of shooting the messenger, but it also sounds like they've been a bit woolly in their direction, or perhaps they had an amazing scout helper before and had unrealistic expectations of what he can do.

Either way I'd want to have a full and frank chat about it now, so that if he's better doing something else then he can kick that off sooner rather than later.

Their last helper was DS1 and as I say, he has social issues so I'm not thinking that he was brilliant. :) He tends to look more awkward though rather than that slouchy teenagery look that DS2 can have, I think DS2 is channelling a moody laconic french artist sometimes - you could easily see him lounging about in a Parisian bar sipping wine from a tumbler with a gauloise in the other hand while brooding about his latest muse - it's all a cover for his lack of confidence in this I think.

As for what they want him to do, he has to "prove that he can be a useful member of the team of the next few weeks"

You see to me that's not specific enough. If I was to put a member of staff on performance improvement, or god forbid I was put on one at work, it would need to detail what I would be required to do to meet the required standard.

So they need to articulate what being a useful member of the team is.

Does this mean running a section of the meeting or what? I have a lot of sympathy with the organisers - it isn't great fun being lumbered with a cripplingly shy teenager with an attitude problem, but surely the whole ethos of the organisation is around self development. Teenagers are pretty easy to read and it shouldn't be hard to spot someone is lacking in confidence or doesn't know what to do.

Ask them to state specifically what they require and how often he needs to do it and get signed off.

They are on an outside activity this week so I'm going to drop him off/pick him up. If I can get parked rather than stopping and chucking him out, I'll see if anyone is available for me to have a word with. Either way I've said to him to ask, "What would you like me to help with today?"

and I agree rookie it's not a SMART objective is it?

I wish I'd thought about it more before replying now but I didn't want it to look like I hadn't received the message and taken action.

It's hard though as everyone is a volunteer and you don't want to appear defensive about your own DS.

I think having a quiet word is a very good idea. If they are finding it hard to articulate the issue or what they need him to do, you could maybe ask what DS1 did that DS2 doesn't.

I know rookie and I like all the ones I know including the guy who actually emailed me - he's known DS2 since he was a little boy and has teenagers of his own and he was very much the messenger.

I appreciate that everyone is a volunteer and they all have differing levels of experience too, so for me it's a real learning point but I don't think DS2 is the only one who could learn from this and I definitely don't want it to look like I am just making excuses and not tackling the problem.

Ds1 will be looking get his silver signed off soon (as soon as we can find out where the forms are since he hasn't been given a booklet for silver) and he's just given up his weekend to go help with a sailing camp (in the middle of his exams) which fair enough he enjoyed but still...

I don't think we will have an issue though as the Scout leader specifically requested him as he is quiet and calm and some of the others who wanted to "help" at Scouts were a bit leery - they went to help at Cubs as that is the wildest age group imo. I don't think either of mine would cope with Cubs.

Okay, there was much monium of Pandas when I dropped off so couldn't park but i have a slightly clearer view of the issue regardless. There is another boy also being a young leader with the Beavers. He is a lovely lad but super confident and with two younger siblings and DS says he seems to know what he is doing with the kids - he also is a rugby player and DS doesn't do team sports either. I think DS has been directly compared and found wanting. :(

I am not doing the other boy down at all, he is clearly better at that sort of thing than DS, we can't all be good at the same things, but it does explain things a little better.

I think their expectations sound very high for a bronze award 14 year old.At that level I would expect him to turn up every week or when expected and help out as instructed , not be a full member of the team devising activities etc. I have a fairly confident 14 year old but he would be a bit over whelmed by this . Do the leaders understand what they should be expecting at this level , I feel quite sorry for your ds , I know plenty who have done far less and still been signed off for the award.

Despite the fact that he had a telling off from DH and I yesterday, I was feeling a bit sorry for him tonight. he looked so nervous and sad. It is a bit of an achievement of sorts to turn up every week for 9 months to something that you don't enjoy and makes you uncomfortable without complaint other than a slight groan every so often. He's never ducked out apart from blister week.

He really is such a good boy in general, he gives us no trouble at all except for a bedroom that isn't as tidy as it should be. he definitely is a bit lazy though and I've probably indulged him too much which is why I got so sucked into the email, we are not used to getting criticism of our children. Anyway, I've told him what he needs to do as far as I see it for the next few weeks. We'll see how it goes.

Thank you all for your thoughts.

They only have to do 3 months of volonteering for bronze , so 9 months is excellent.Is he doing the Dof E through scouts or through school , I would speak to his co ordinater and see if he can have a word with the beevor leader , it sounds like their expectations are somewhat out of kilter

He needed to do 6 months of one thing and he chose his volunteering for that.

It's through school.

He did badminton after school for sport and didn't want to put 6 months as it's often cancelled and we struggled to get 3 months out of it tbh as it was always off when the exams are on to. He did his lifesaving for the skill and he wasn't sure how many months that would take and if he qualified in less than 6 then it wouldn't have been usable.

I am not really sure if it's worth getting the co-ordinator involved unless they say after the next few weeks that they won't sign him off even with his increased participation.

Despite leaving early to get him I still didn't get parked near so I had to do a drive by jump in job. Anyway, he says it went better and that one of the leaders came across and said well done to him so he was feeling quite pleased. I also gave him a tip of just repeating what the leader is shouting. i.e. if he/she is telling them al to get in a circle, he should wait a few seconds and then repeat it and look out for people not doing what they've been asked and just go up to them and say, come on now we are all getting into a circle now, or whatever it is. It seems so obvious now but he genuinely had no idea what to do. I've also suggested looking out little ones struggling and getting down to their level and just asking if they want him to show them how to do it or help them with whatever or if he sees one by themselves just asking if they'd like to come and join in. I feel so stupid now that I didn't suggest these things to him before.

I think it's their fault for not making their expectations clear.

Don't beat yourself up onemagnum - you had no way of knowing that things weren't going well and the cub leader was the one on site who could easily have given that information ( although I acknowledge that it's very full on with cubs already).

I'd be delighted if DS was supporting cubs on a weekly basis at age 14 and both your DS's sound like great boys, and it sounds like your DS will do well now he's had some positive feedback.

Thinking about it, it might be worth emailing the organisers back and say that DS was pleased with how things went tonight and you hope that they were too - make sure they totally get the message that you're supporting him and they need to do so too.

Thank you for your kind words rookie. They are the stars in my sky so I wonder sometimes if i am a bit blind to their faults. DH is away tonight but phoned earlier to see how he got on, he said the same as me that he forgets that he hasn't really had anything to do with younger kids so it wouldn't be obvious to him what he should do.

He seemed happier when I picked him up and he also knew what they are are doing next week (cycling) so said he'd go on his bike too without any prompting.

I wondered if they would contact me back as they haven't responded at all to my email back, but it didn't necessarily need one. They generally have a big end of term thing which we've always gone along to, although mine are technically in Explorers and in a different group so should only be going along in their capacity as young leaders. It's only in a field though so no reason for me not to pop along. If nothing is said in the meantime I'll have a chat with the "main man" then :)

Oh well. He told me that one of the Beaver leaders, the one I dealt with mainly last year for DS1, came over to him last week and said well done so everything seemed better, he felt better and his effort was recognised.

Anyway, he was doing a cycling activity with them tonight he said he was very busy, he came back covered in oil as he'd spent a lot of time putting chains back on and he'd got DH to show him how to pump up tyres properly before he went. It was a really hot evening. so he was hot, thirsty, dirty and tired when he got back.

The other leader has posted a few photos on their FB page and thanked everyone under the sun and particularly mentioned a parent who had stayed to help - no mention of DS2 (or the other boy if he was there).

I think that is horrible. I feel like emailing the overall leader or commenting on the post but I can't because I am too annoyed.