to worry about DD's friend's dog and the proposed sleepover

[koekje]

DD is nearly 8 and her friend has invited her and another girl for a celebratory sleepover at the friend's house. Trouble is the friend has a large boisterous young dog, Labrador-cross, just 12-13 months old, which is completely untrained and undisciplined and I am concerned about something happening.

On the plus side of the column, DD is very used to dogs as we have a Jack Russell ourselves and she is pretty responsible in how she behaves around them.

On the negative side, this dog thinks it's the pack-leader, goes crazy barking when the doorbell goes and has growled at visitors. The parents do what they can to correct the dog but to no great effect, and with the best will in the world, they will not have "eyes on" what the dog and the kids are doing all the time. I don't think they see the risk in the same way, on the last playdate there, the kids were unexpectedly left in the care of small, frail MIL.

I just have visions of DD squealing and wrestling with her friend, the dog thinking he needs to "defend" his pack and my next phone-call coming from the A&E.

My gut is that DD should not go to this friend's house whilst the dog is there. But I'm massively conflict-averse and can't think of how to communicate this to the friend's parents without them taking offence, or talking me out of it. To give some context, I live outside the UK and this friend is part of a small group of international families that we hang out with from school so there will be ripple effects to contend with.

Argh! I know I'm right but I just need a script...

YANBU.
You do have evidence the dog is a risk, and in any case its up to the owner to prove their dog is safe before you trust it.
Not the other way around.

Then she'll have to make an excuse every time they invite her. Awkward.

As a dog lover and owner, I think it is reasonable to be worried about this. Many dog bites occur when dc are visiting (in blended families when one parent has custody at weekends for example or when friends are visiting or having sleepovers) ask any veterinary nurse. If I was this dog's owner, I wouldn't be at all offended to be questioned about this.

It sounds like too much of a risk. Can you just ask the parents what they think, can they shut it downstairs?

In what way does it sound lie too much of a risk?

YANBU, I would have the girls at my house.

How is it a risk?

Is your dd wary of the dog? My dog (7) barks like crazy when someone knocks on the door. When the person comes in she then rolls onto her back so they can tickle her tummy. She has a really impressive scary bark, but is soppy as anything.

As someone else said you either need to have a chat about the dog or never ever let your daughter go there making a different excuse every time!

A risk that the dog will attack and the children are not strong enough to fend it off. That is the OPs concern isn't it? I think that they are right to be concerned.

How can you possibly approach the parents and suggest their daughter's birthday sleepover happens at your place?

They'd think you were bonkers

Has the dog ever 'attacked'?

But the OP has no evidence that this dog is a risk! Or are all dogs something that should be kept away from children?

I am of the belief that there should be no unsupervised contact. Nothing against dogs but I wouldn't wait for an attack before deciding that they pose a risk.

Pack leader theory is a load of crap dogs don't need dominating or any of that rubbish.

But regardless I think you need to find out the facts by speaking to the parents before making a decision. If the dog actually has growled and bitten then I would be asking what steps are in place to keep them seperate from the dog.

Nothing against dogs but I wouldn't wait for an attack before deciding that they pose a risk.

There is no evidence this dog poses any risk. Most dogs bark at the doorbell, that doesn't mean they're going to attack anyone

Labradors really aren't known or bred as aggressive or fighting dogs. If the dog is boisterous and your DD is afraid of it, then fair enough, but it doesn't sound like she is that worried.

This much angst over an 8-year-old and a dog that has no history of aggression seems a little OTT to me.

Your DD is old enough for you to give her a few ground rules when interacting with this dog (or any unknown dog) - not getting on the floor with it, backing off at any sign of agitation, don't encourage or tease it, etc.

I would talk to the parents about it. If they're responsible owners, they won't be offended (as long as it's approached in a polite and tactful way, as with any subject). If they immediately go on the defensive of their precious fur baby, that tells you something in itself.

I have a much loved spaniel, I wouldn't take it amiss if another parent wanted to have a conversation about this sort of thing.

TBH though I also don't see what the 'risk' is in two 7-8 year-olds being left with an adult who is "small and frail."

Ok.

You could make an excuse but be prepared to have to make an excuse every time and either lie to to your daughter or get her to lie for you and pray that don't find out.

OR, just have a rational conversation.

Yes, talk to the parents. I think you are being a little bit over-anxious.

I would not worry about being with the dog. The girls will most likely be shut in the bedroom doing all sorts of hideous screechy glittery shite activity and the pup will be doing something far more interesting downstairs. Like eating or having a belly rub.
The other girls being bitchy are far more likely to cause problems than the puppy!!

I would be less wirried with a growly dog than one who doesn't tbh. A growl is a warning. I would be more concerned about a dog who doesn't warn before biting.

Alpha theory is quite outdated now. It is more likely he is a big boisterous adolescent dog who hasn't been taught how to behave well enough. Growling is something else, but as long as your daughter knows how to behave around dogs I wouldn't be particularly worried.

Don't want to hi-jack and not trying to be deliberately controversial as am genuinely open-minded about this issue and am interested in learning more, but why is it that hierarchy and dominance doesn't apply to dogs when it does to most other mammals? I used to work with horses (domesticated for thousands of years like dogs) and they still have pecking order when let loose in field or in wild herds) Thanks for any insights.

SpareCrust, feral dogs don't live in packs anyway, wolf hierarchy isn't based on dominance - it's literally a family group and the parents are in charge, then older offspring and youngest at the bottom...it's pretty much what happens in any family, lol

Also, humans are a completely different species and dogs know that, they behave differently towards them than other dogs.

So any training or behavioural theories that rely on dogs responding to humans as pack members is just flawed and leads to weird interpretations of behaviour and odd, useless or at worst dangerous training.

If you have an issue with a dog growling at visitors for example, you train for that, not I still some weird house rules that mean you're pack leader but don't actually address that issue.