Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think hording something essential for life is despicable

375 replies

sandrabedminster · 19/05/2016 08:33

www.telegraph.co.uk/money/special-reports/i-have-three-properties-at-age-33-and-3000-a-month-to-save-do-i/

Its not jealousy before someone says it, I own my own home but I doubt my children will ever be able to. But shelter is something essential and all this speculation is causing lots of damage as prices are pushed ever higher. I know a friend that spends 70% of net income just on renting something that is too small for her.

OP posts:
Janecc · 27/05/2016 10:17

fidelex I made no such claim. Did you read all my posts? I am figuring not and would refer to you my post of 05.47 today. I'm not attacking you. Why are you attacking me? None of my tenants live in slum conditions. They live in small 2 bed modern houses. I bought almost 20 years ago thinking young professional people not ready to buy a home so I bought to fit the demographic. They were never part of a council house estate and my tenants would never have been offered a council house. They were built exclusively for private ownership. There is a need for housing for young friends sharing. It is true that I now get more young families but not when I first started renting.

I cannot imagine a slum landlord would be bothered to discuss these issues. Mumsnet I wouldn't have thought fitted the demographic either. Someone, who can treat other human beings with such disdain is hardly likely to bother defending their lifestyle and decisions, they're too busy living in their narcissistic bubble. The mentality of some slum landlords are on apar with those of forced prostitution surely.

Those, who opt for trading in shares do so because they enjoy it and it is an easy way to make money. It is far more work to own and rent property than to trade shares. If I were competent enough, I would trade in shares, not own a couple of houses. That doesn't make me a bad person, it makes me someone, who needs to earn money to pay for my medicine. People do what they are good at. World class footballers, pop stars make in a week what many make in a year and in some cases a decade or lifetime. These people are revered not reviled.

Janecc · 27/05/2016 10:24

fidelix I read the article you sent a link on so I put that back to you. Just because my illness isn't a problem to you, do you think it isn't a problem? Are you going to give me £600 plus a month to pay for my treatments if I sell my houses?

TeradelFuego · 27/05/2016 10:32

How is BTL 'work'?

LostMySanityCanIBorrowYours · 27/05/2016 10:57

or they must sell back to the council at the original price + any increase in market value?

That's what the local HA are doing under their right to buy and help to buy schemes if the owner sells within 5 years of purchase. They also must offer the HA and council first refusal if they sell after this period.

Micah · 27/05/2016 11:05

Terade- have you never heard of letting agents? Do you think they do it for nothing? Or that you pay them to sit around doing nothing? Either you pay a letting agent a hefty fee to do the work for you, or you do it yourself.

all those jobs you do when you own your own house- waiting in for plumbers, repainting, dealing with banks, residents associations, leasholders, mortgage, sourcing, buying, fitting new furnishings.

Finding tenants, advertising, checking references, dealing with any problems they have, chasing rent, unpaid bills.

This is why decent tenant are worth their weight in gold and most landlords will do anything to keep them.

I once had a particularly dim tenant who was incredibly hard work. Once called me over at 11pm as he'd tripped the fuse box but didn't have a clue how to flip the switch. Complained the shower wasnt working- he'd thought the electric switch was a light that didn't work. Decided to repaint, got permission, slapped lots of tester colours everywhere, then couldn't be bothered to finish it.

It was after him i decided to leave it empty. Then i had a young student ask if he could live there while it sold, but couldn't afford full rent, just needed somewhere for a few months. He offered to repaint, keep it clean and tidy, and show buyers round, so i let to him for something ridiculous like £100 a month (market price £500) as it worked both ways.

fidelix · 27/05/2016 11:25

Janecc - "Just because my illness isn't a problem to you, do you think it isn't a problem? Are you going to give me £600 plus a month to pay for my treatments if I sell my houses?"

I could return that, with "Just because my lack of homeowning isn't a problem to you, do you think it isn't a problem? Are you going to give me £600 plus a month to pay for my rent?"

The difference between the financial problems you face because of your illness and the financial problems others face caused by the fact that rents typically take up way more than the 30% max of monthly salary deemed reasonable traditionally (often over 60% of salary in London) is that your illness is no-one's fault. Obviously, I have sympathy with your illness - but for some reason, you appear to have no sympathy for others who are suffering insecurity, ill-health and huge financial penalties because they weren't lucky enough to buy 20 years ago, like you did, when properties were cheap (and as they don't have time machines, can't go back and do that now, not when house prices nationally are now 9 times average earnings!!!).

fidelix · 27/05/2016 11:27

If we could pass laws to prevent your illness, Janecc, I can assure you I would support them 100%. But I doubt that's possible.

It is quite possible, however, to pass laws to prevent an entire generation having their lives ruined by high rents and poor rental conditions, while homeowning remains an unaffordable dream for most. You should support those laws too.

fidelix · 27/05/2016 11:32

specialsubject - BTL is not 'work' - it is rent-seeking, rather literally.

If you really find it so hard, I recommend you get an agency to do it. Given they charge no more than 10% of the rent to do it, unless you think letting agencies are charities and do it out of love, one must assume that the actual "work" involved in managing a BTL takes rather less than 10% of the cost of the rent to do (and that's ignoring the profit of the letting agents, so presumably the amount of "work" involved is no more than about 5% of the monthly rent.

If you are making 95% of the rent without work, I think that's as close as dammit to no work, in most people's eyes!

I don't know what you think other people do in real job, but I can assure you the rest of us don't expect to get paid a full-time salary for working 5% of the time!

BreakingDad77 · 27/05/2016 11:44

This is why decent tenant are worth their weight in gold and most landlords will do anything to keep them

You would think lol, but from friends experience the opposite is also true if your nice the landlords just try and blather their way out of responsibility.

Because they have all experience crap landlords it makes you think on the balance of probabilities they are not as a minority as people make out.

Micah · 27/05/2016 13:35

Nobody's expecting a full time salary? I doubt that's even possible unless you have a massive portfolio.

The actual income you get is pretty small once mortgage, bills, repairs, maintenance etc are all paid.

Yes you may get a capital gain if you sell, which is subject to cgt. But it's not part of your yearly income.

user1463231665 · 27/05/2016 13:55

It was a happy happy day when we sold our two buy to let flats and sold them at a loss by the way - we worked on them at a loss. I bet most tenants on here wouldn't work at a loss but that's the plight of landlords sometimes depending on market conditions. We don't expect anyone to weep for us but it's not as easy tenants seem to think We made a capital loss

Most landlords make little profit on the rent after they pay the mortgage.
Say £300k property, £225k loan (75%) at say 5% interest about £1k mortgage a month. Rent might be £1200 in London. Letting agent fees about the difference between the rent and the mortgage cost etc etc. I am very glad not to be letting any more and we spent literally hours and hours on hands and knees doing stuff from plumbing to wall stripping to painting (with 3 very small children at home too and two full time jobs). never mind all the time on the paperwork which yes is not as onerous as my small business but is still quite time consuming.

Just5minswithDacre · 27/05/2016 14:05

We don't expect anyone to weep for us but it's not as easy tenants seem to think

Is at as easy as owner occupiers think it is?

HelgaVonHinklebaum · 27/05/2016 14:08

He should invest in something productive rather than speculating on this and invest in a pension

Have you considered a career as a financial advisor?

Janecc · 27/05/2016 14:22

fidelex. I really am truly sorry that you are unable to buy a house and you are very right, properties were indeed cheap 20 years ago. Perhaps you did not know they were far more expensive 7/8 years before that - 30-40% more. (our first house was apparently 75k pre crash and we paid 47k - but it was in need of tlc) In the early 80's as house prices boomed due to the mass sell off of council houses and the relaxing of lending laws. Many young people back then or those up to their early 30's watched pre crash prices soar and believed they would never buy a property. I too thought in the mid 80's that I would never be a home owner. It was equally demoralising and frustrating back then for the nations young adults.

I understand that you may think of me as preventing you from buying a house and that may be partly true but the current housing crisis is far more complex and has been created by many factors including the following:

  • Longevity of life - people are living maybe 20 years more on average
  • Divorce rates - 2 homes needed instead of one
  • Influential and mainly foreign business people and officials buying multimillion pound properties in London to launder money
  • Net immigration
  • Sudden return to more lax lending by banks, which tightened as a result of the 2008 global recession triggered by the pre prime mortgage disaster
  • Lack of local authority housing
  • The feel good factor returning to the country - everyone suddenly wants to buy a house
  • Recent btl landlords, who see btl as a means of making a fast buck not housing tenants appropriately and for the right reasons
  • Large scale btl landlords, who have always existed and the government is not penalising in the same way because the government seems to be fine with them (15 houses or more stamp duty new regulations do not apply)

I am not responsible for these issues. I went into btl because I moved abroad. Had we not moved abroad, perhaps we would not be btl landlords. The law, although it does affect me (on the mortgage tax front) was actually not designed to target me. It was designed to target the recent surge of irresponsible btl landlords, who don't know what they are doing. This is in fact why the government has separate legislation for large scale btl landlords (15+ house ownership with the additional 3% stamp duty exemption). I am outraged at this exemption, they too should have to pay and is a nod and an appeasement to ease the "suffering" to these landlords.

Of course it is extremely frustrating and saddening that a whole generation of people, who should have been buying properties over the past decade did not buy property because of the global economy. I have massive sympathy for you and these other people. I believe house prices will stagnate and probably fall. I do think market forces will drive down prices as the current market price for a property is not sustainable until income catches up with house prices. Perhaps not a great deal in London, where multimillion pound properties have been snapped up through dodgy deals with foreign investors massively inflating house prices. This is in London where my properties are not located has nothing to do with me. And yes, I do think it is a good thing that the government has passed laws to help release some of the btl housing stock as I hope it will benefit others and help to get rid of greedy and irresponsible landlords.

I am sorry that you find my small scale ownership of properties offensive. I do what I have to do for my family and me. It would be fair to assume that I am older than you. Property prices wax and wane in this country and I really have seen this situation before, twice. Perhaps not as dire because the country and demographic has changed.

The only thing I am able to do is what I do do and that is to take as little as I can from the welfare state, I paid for my ivf whilst living abroad even though my dh paid NI in England for the duration, which entitled me to NHS care (and I imagine ivf), I did not claim DLA money, I do not ask for NHS Physio or counselling. If I did not pay for my treatment, I would be a very ill person, probably bed bound and in a wheelchair. So I do what I am able to do to support others. I have to look after me so that I can look after my child to enable her to grow to be a thriving and productive member of society, who pays in to her country and looks after those less fortunate than herself.

I really do hope that the situation changes and I really would be happy to see much more affordable housing and a drop in house prices - although perhaps not too much - not from a selfish perspective but because it will trigger mass negative equity, repossessions and possibly a rise in interest rates, which will benefit no one as even though housing would be more affordable, interest payments on mortgages would not. People were harder hit in the late 80's crash in my view than in the 2008 crash. Perhaps I am wrong as I was very young first time around. I know that a lot is wrong with the country and although house buying was cheaper, I really don't want to go back to the late 80's/early 90's of suffering and despair.

My comment in response to the article was glib without trying to be offensive because I find it unfair that all landlords are being tarred with the same brush and under attack. I really am not trying to cause you or anyone else offence and really do wish you the very best.

fidelix · 27/05/2016 15:25

Janecc - I really don't blame you or individual landlords (though I am fed up with those landlords on this thread who keep insisting that all tenants wish to be so and ignore the fact that the majority of rental accommodation is poor quality and ridiculously over-priced).

I totally agree that BTL isn't the only factor involved in the housing situation - I'd agree with your list and add to it overly-cheap credit, ie too-low interest rates, deliberate pumping of the housing market by Help to Buy and other policies, lack of housebuilding and lack of proper pension provision. All of these factors have ensured that house prices are now almost double historical highs relative to income, meaning that all those who can't buy have no choice but to rent, hugely pumping up demand.

fidelix · 27/05/2016 15:27

Micah - if the returns are so bad, why have about 2 million people flocked to BTL in the last decade or so? You sound as though capital gain were insignificant - in London, you could be talking about a capital gain of hundreds of thousands of pounds. That's a lot of money - and presumably what motivate the BTLetters, even if the monthly return is not vast.

sandrabedminster · 27/05/2016 15:48

your illness is no-one's fault. Obviously, I have sympathy with your illness - but for some reason, you appear to have no sympathy for others who are suffering insecurity, ill-health and huge financial penalties because they weren't lucky enough to buy 20 years ago, like you did, when properties were cheap (and as they don't have time machines, can't go back and do that now, not when house prices nationally are now 9 times average earnings!!!).

Here here. Although btl landlords do shoulder some of the blame for pushing up prices.

Feathering their own nests and pulling up the ladder behind them.

OP posts:
Janecc · 27/05/2016 16:27

sandra to continue this argument is nonsensical as I explained my beliefs and views are very different from this in my last post.

fidelix these additional house buyers over the 10 years I believe make up a greater proportion of the irresponsible landlords. Many don't use letting agents and have caused havoc. Agents ensure the landlord complies and keeps the property in a good condition and the regulations are adhered to. Mine take 10% plus Vat full management. Monthly income will be vast only if a) there is no mortgage or b) landlords leave the property uncared for and do not abide by the rules and regulations c) if they let on a room by room basis - especially if say a large old style 3/4 bed house is split into 7 beds for example.

We remortgaged when we came back to the U.K to pull out cash on out as a deposit to buy our home as things didn't go to plan. As the current tax rules stood last year, with the mortgage interest we paid, we broke even. We used to make a loss when the mortgage interest rate went up to 7.7% in 2006/7. With the new rules, we will of course make a taxable profit. Or rather taxable for dh as I don't have an income.

I really don't think a lot of tenants want to rent long term at least. I have seen a shift in the tenants I have. As I said, I targeted young professionals, who were not quite ready to buy. They didn't stay in the properties long 18 months average. We have had more families recently. I'm sure these people don't want to rent long term. We had maybe the first couple with a child six years or so ago. She had her second child whilst in the house. They failed references and the parents were guarantors. They defaulted on the rent two or three times after a year or so of arrival. Because the parents were guarantors, the parents had to pay. The tenants then just stopped paying. I asked the agent to discuss the situation with the parents and they said the young woman and partner and children could go to stay with her parents. Poor parents for having to pay out. I gave notice on the property as the tenants refused. No way was I letting her parents subsidise them further. These people would have been much better off in local authority housing. They were not responsible enough to own a house. So there is a need for rentals. Just not another 2 million in the last decade. I didn't know the figures were so ridiculously high. And I also didn't know help to buy schemes were so bad.

user1463231665 · 27/05/2016 16:28

It is not unlawful in the UK to work hard and support your children. Indeed it's a moral good. That includes where that involves buying your own home and also providing housing for others. There is little kinder that you can do for others than provisions of a roof over their head. I don't expect all tenants to agree so we will all have to agree to disagree.

I don't agree that anyone on the thread has said that " all tenants wish to be so". Many people don't wish to work either or want a Rolls Royce. Life is tough. There will always be people who don't have what they want.

I don't agree that in London " the majority of rental accommodation is poor quality". That is not my experience. The standard letting to non housing benefit tenants in London anyway at market rates tend to be of good quality and most landlords don't want any more defects in that property than they would their own home.

I don't agree it is " ridiculously over-priced". Landlords in London charge not much more than their costs due to high house prices leading to high interest charges. The rent entirely reflects market conditions. It is a market price, not an over price. It is about £500 a month to rent a small house in the bit of the NE my mother is from and it is about £1400 a month to rent a one bed flat where my daughter lives in London. The rents reflect property prices and costs in particular areas.

However we all agree that there are not enough houses to buy which people can afford in areas of the country where people want to live and can find a job. My son's found a flat for £300k at last (unless it falls through) and there is virtually nothing on the market near us at that price (and that's a low price for here - outer London). It is the shortgage of properties which is the issue. as soon as any local pub is demolished or petrol station pulled down or abandoned office converted immediately the 20 flats inside will have been bought up (bought by locals - we don't have foreigners buyig nad leaving empty out here- just loads of young couples wanting to start families, highest rate of married people I think of any London borough)

sandrabedminster · 27/05/2016 16:46

That includes where that involves buying your own home and also providing housing for others. There is little kinder that you can do for others than provisions of a roof over their head. I don't expect all tenants to agree so we will all have to agree to disagree.

I don't for a second believe you are real. You've really over egged it.

OP posts:
LostMySanityCanIBorrowYours · 27/05/2016 16:50

There is little kinder that you can do for others than provisions of a roof over their head. I don't expect all tenants to agree so we will all have to agree to disagree.

I whole heartedly agree. There's a house up for sale nearby for £85k, when can I expect your kind contribution towards my purchase of it?

Unless of course you meant buying up housing stock, thus increasing demand and price and then renting that house out at an inflated price so that you can profit from anothers need for housing? Because, that? Not kind.

fidelix · 27/05/2016 17:40

There is little kinder that you can do for others than provisions of a roof over their head. I don't expect all tenants to agree so we will all have to agree to disagree.

Oh for goodness sake! You're renting out homes at huge profits, you're not offering them out for free out of the kindness of your heart! You're hardly a philanthropist!

While it's certainly not "unlawful in the UK to work hard and support your children" as far as I can see the only working hard in a landlord-tenant arrangement is the tenant, but most of their wages are stolen taken to pay the rent. The landlord, as has been discussed above, does not work at all, let alone hard.

fidelix · 27/05/2016 17:42

On second thoughts, I'm with Sandra. Your post is somewhat unbelievable, even by the standards of this thread!

GhostofFrankGrimes · 27/05/2016 17:57

This is why decent tenant are worth their weight in gold and most landlords will do anything to keep them.

until the mortgage is paid and the landlord cashes the asset in, kicking the tenant to the kerb. The tenant then requires another property in which to pay someone elses mortgage.

user1463231665 · 27/05/2016 22:20

Look it is important landlords adn tenants discuss these issues. SDome people may exist in a bubble where all their friends rent and landlords are evil Rachman like devils who let out hell holes full of damp and make millions from property and think the provision of rental property by landlords is morally wrong. Others know that many landlords provide good quality properties and without them there would be nothing to rent and nor would they ever be able to buy anyway and that the landlord does good work. At least we can all hear each other out on here, but don't assume everyone in the UK regards landlords as evil or private lettings as morally pernicious. That is not the view of many in the Uk at all. Most of us are pro free markets, capitalists and vote accordingly - see the last election result.

Swipe left for the next trending thread