To be hesitant about bringing baby to hoarding parent's house?

[Ladyboluna]

Last time I visited my parents there was around 50 unopened very large cardboard boxes full of books, stacked up to the ceiling all through the house... in every room. As you imagine the house has a problem with dust too as it's been going on for several years. My mother has mental health problems that stop her leaving the house but she is refusing to get medical help. It's so bad in the living room now there is not enough room to put down a car seat, let alone a basket or playmat to put baby down on.

I'm in the third trimester of pregnancy and obviously my parents want me to bring the baby to visit them (they live about 4 hours drive away, longer by train) because my mother won't travel.

And every week she rings me and tells me all about the new books she has bought with her wages (works from home, dad works too so mum keeps all of hers). And every week I tell her she needs to have a clear out if she wants me to bring baby, as right now if we do visit we're staying at a hotel. It's really hurt her feelings but I am at a loss as to what to do now.

DH's Gran and Uncle live in a house like you describe. Full of just stuff. Rooms piled high with crap so you can't open the door.s and get in etc etc. It's awful. We don't visit much in winter as it's just so horrible to have the kids there. In summer we can sit outside.

It's not just dust. The family persuaded them to let them clear the kitchen so they could have a new one installed. They found all sorts of dead things behind the boxes and piled up junk, including a large, now deflated,rat.

They know the house is hard to live in. They know their family dislikes visiting because it's dirty and impossible tomorrow clean, yet refuse to change. To be fair, Gran can't do anything now as she's elderly, but uncle could step up if he chose to. He doesn't.

You need to stand up and put yourself and your kids first. We don't have To visit to travel, you do. 4 hours to visit people who live in a house you can't get in and be comfortable then 4 hours back is crazy. I feel for you with your mum not leaving the house, but that means her choice is change the house and see you or don't. Although I suspect both issues are connected psychologically.

As someone said, they can't force you to go. They can try and guilt you, but you can choose to ignore or call them on that behaviour.

Good luck for the arrival of your new baby.

Agree with others that you won't "fix them". They can't make you visit, however much they demand it. If you can get in and sit down somewhere I expect you could safely take a newborn in a sling, but I wouldn't take a crawler. I also wouldn't undertake that length of journey for quite a while.

Yanbu

However awful you feel your mum is an adult. She is functioning enough to work and she needs to take responsibility for getting help. On the other hand your biggest responsibility is to your baby who has to rely on you to keep him/her safe.

But horrible situation

It sounds like both your parents have trained you and your sister to prioritise your mums mental health issues above all else, and are struggling with the reality you won't any more (and it's important that you don't continue todo so).

Try again with your dad "I'm not telling you how to live your life, I'm telling you the consequences of how you've decided to live your life is that unless something changes I won't be visiting with the baby, so either mum will have to come to me or not meet her grandchild . This is a choice you and mum are making, don't pretend you aren't, it's not my choice, it's yours."

Any complaints about journeys they took when you were a baby "it's not just the distance, it's the state of the house, and don't pretend you don't know that."

Time to be hard, no softly softly, they've got time to sort it out, but are prioritising pandering to your mum's issues over having a relationship with you.

It sounds like they talk down to you as if you're still a child. "You WILL do this..." No you won't and don't have to. The next time she says how you visited her mother at 8 weeks explain how the house wasn't a death and dust trap. She needs help now or there will be no way she'd see your children when they're older, it's just not safe.

Definitely think it's worth getting some rules n place early on and not fudging the issue. I have a friend whose husband is a hoarder. Their home is shocking - only a narrow pathway to walk through the rooms to the kitchen and nobody could safely visit.

She had her first grandchild about 10 years ago and her daughter visited a couple of times while the baby was young. As the child got older visits became scarcer and stopped altogether. Her daughter made excuses, but didn't ever come out with the reason why she couldn't visit anymore. My friend became bitter about her daughter spending time with her in laws and the relationship has broken down now. The hoarding is the elephant in the room.

When my kids were much younger, my parents were going through a rough time. Dad was looking after mum (she had dementia) and although I offered many times to help, dad said that I had little ones to take care of. Also we lived over two hours away.
Anyhow, one weekend we decided to visit anyway. They had two cats, and at the time I hadn't realised how bad it had got. The house was a flea pit!
We only stayed a few minutes as we were covered in fleas as soon as we walked in! Spent ages picking them off the kids and ourselves.
Didn't go back with the kids after that. And anyway, mum didn't even recognize us at the time.

Your baby comes first. Would the house be easy to get out of quickly if there was a fire? Is the dust bad enough that if newborn baby had asthma(I do and so does my daughter and I'm pregnant right now which is making it worse!) that it could struggle with its breathing? Is there a chance of any of these boxes just falling at any point? Somewhere to make bottles? Somewhere to change him/her and their nappy? It all needs pointing out, it's certainly not unreasonable, I wouldn't take my daughter there or my new addition when it comes. They're treating you like a child by trying to tell you what to do, you're a grown woman and about to be a mother and so luckily you do get to decide! I know it must be horrible for you though, so I really do feel, but your baby's safety and comfort is essential. X

Ladyboluna I had exactly this problem - my mum and my sister were both hoarders, lived together, house absolutely filthy. If you wanted to sit down you had to shift piles of crap off a chair, and there was no prospect at all of putting a playmat down. My mum, like yours, didn't leave the house.

I loved my mum, and I love my sister, for all that they were/are both quite difficult. I did take DS to see them, but not often - and when he was a babe in arms I hung onto him for most of it. When he was older I just gritted my teeth for an hour's visit, and stripped him off in the hallway as soon as I got home, clothes in the washing machine, boy in the bath!

My DS has mainly good memories of going to see my mum, and understands about metal health, even when he was quite small, so I feel OK about it. I did try to help the association by usually taking him to a lovely park that was about halfway there on the (long) journey, so he'd be able to run around and let off steam beforehand, so less likely to get frustrated at my mum's, and also so that he'd look forward to the visits as he'd get to go to this particular park first.

Now that my mum is dead, I almost never go to the house at all, and arrange to see my sister elsewhere. It suits us both that way!

Having said all that, it's your decision. If you do visit, and are staying in a nearby hotel, then your visit is to the town. You can drop into your mum for half an hour in the morning if you must go in, then go and do something nice, then drop in for half an hour in the afternoon. Even if you do decide to visit, your time is your own - if you don't want to eat there, or try and put your baby down for a nap there (not a chance!) then you don't have to. This isn't you punishing your parents for being messy, this is you setting the boundaries of what you can cope with and what you can't.

Answer a few questions first -

My sister is still a teenager and living at home. She cleans her own room and hardly comes out of it, but her room has a problem with mould around the window (so does other parts of the house) that they're refusing to deal with. She is moving out in September to go to university though.

My mother does have a kindle, she buys books for it, but I think for her having physical books is more of a comfort blanket as well as looking forward to the deliveries. For birthday/Christmas I used to buy her kindle vouchers which she used but then inevitably... its worth noting here she is a slow reader anyway.

DinosaursRoar - You've put it in words better than I could have done myself. We have been trained to prioritise my mum's mental health above anything else. For example many years ago while doing my exams, they told me to help my sister with her homework project (she would have been around 11 at the time). I spent 4 hours working on it with her. When my mum saw it she said it was s* and we had to do it again. My dad stuck up for me - he told my mum I had to do my work. My mum screamed insults at me and dad, stamped upstairs crying, and slammed her bedroom door, my dad following. Me and my sister spent the rest of the day on our own downstairs. The next day my dad said it would have been better if I had redone it "because I get it in the neck otherwise".

Thank you all again for the responses I have read each one but I don't have time today to reply to everyone individually. I have felt very lonely feeling I had no one to talk to about it and this has been such a relief to be told I may be doing the right thing.

I'm going to speak to my parents on the phone today and bring up the issue of the house and lay down the law. My OH is not keen on taking the baby to the house because of the dust and general H&S issues, he won't be happy staying there overnight anyway.

Such a hard situation to deal with. From my similar experience, you won't change them, threats of not visiting are unlikely to have any impact. Best to find a solution like staying nearby and visiting for short periods. But don't be bullied in to visiting before you are ready - 4 hours is a long way away. With MH problems (and it sounds like your dad has issues as well as your mum) you really can"t be responsible for how they feel and react.

With my own difficult parents, once I had a baby, two changes happened for me that I hadn't anticipated - one, I became so focused on my own little family, that the dramas of my parents became less important to me and took up less of my emotional energy as a result, and two, it made me look at their parenting of me with fresh eyes which led to a lot of anger on my part, and I have started counselling to help me work through it. Just a warning that the baby will probably bring more than just logistical challenges in relation to your parents.

for you.

Gosh this is a very hard situation to be in - but this isnt just about floor space, but what if a pile of boxes or books were to fall, they could seriously injure your baby, even if in the car seat. I think you need to have a really hard talk with them. They cannot blackmail you with things they did for you as a child or have done for you in the past - as grandparents they should have the interests of their grandchildren at heart.
I really think its a case of either have the horrible talk, without getting irate or upset if possible, or else just dont go there. TBH you shouldnt be doing that journey anyway to begin with, its too long to drive after no sleep and with a tiny baby that isnt suposed to be in a car seat for longer than 30/45 minutes I think it is the experts say?

This is fundamentally about you challenging the unspoken family rule that your mother's MH issues take priority, isn't it? It's been unchallenged for so long that it's come to be completely normal for them. So they are probably genuinely confused at the idea you might take a different view.

But YANBU to want to keep your baby away from what sounds like a very unsanitary environment. Which means you have to challenge them.

I think you're very brave to be tackling it head-on rather than just skirting round the issue or making excuses for not visiting.

God how awful for you. I have to say I wouldn't even carry an immobile newborn into the house, it's not just about space but also the invisible hazards, dust, mould, droppings.

My Dad was a rubbish hoarder, never used bins, just chucked everything on the floor and it piled up metres high. MH problems he is still in denial with, he trashed 2 council properties I had to practically sell my soul to get him into. I have never taken my DS or DSS to his home, with a newborn it was impossible so he came to mine.
They have no right to tell you to bring a baby into their house. Stay strong

We have this. My eldest is now 6 years old, and my parents house is getting worse.

We don't live nearby so don't see it regularly but it's awful. We offered to help clear out and they refused. Offered to pay for weekly cleaners, they refused.

We haven't ever taken the children their at all I'm afraid. My grandmother lives near them also and her home is spotless, we therefore use that as a daytime base indoors to see parents. Plus stay in local hotel and try to spend the whole weekend out instead at local places with them instead.

I went alone about 6 weeks ago. Every cup was filthy in Greece, every surface dusty, bathroom disgusting. And stinks of cats. I couldn't stay more than 20 mins before I suggested we all went out for lunch and then spent afternoon on a long walk with them to avoid house. Again tried to clean, tried to throw a broken coat hanger away which they fished out the bin... Offered cleaner again and they refused and say they don't need one and they don't even notice..

You really can't take children into that environment.

Wolfie did you miss the part where her DM has been unable to leave the house for several years?
Op has your mother claimed pip? If not maybe you could help her with that.
I think the best you can do is stay in a local hotel for a couple of days. The baby won't need to be put down when little anyway.

OP - have you used phrases like "Mum's mental health problems" with your Dad or are you all dancing round the issues and acting like it's within the 'normal' range of behaviour? Rather than have an argument with your dad about visiting, it might be better to say this is highlighting how "mentally ill" your mother is and that by just finding ways to accomodate her illness, Dad isn't actually helping her get better.

Your mum needs help - both for the hoarding and not leaving the house - you just acting like her behaviour is normal might be the path of lease resistance for your father, but actually isn't going to help her. If she could leave the house, then you would be able to see her elsewhere (your home, or even just met her near where she lives). If she was able to cope with the piles of stuff in her home, then you would be able to safely visit.

Accomodating your mother's issues isn't solving them.

What does that mean?

MyMuphy, I think think it means that SBlink's post was the sort of post the should be on the Non-member requests board, e.g. 'we are a TV company planning a documentary on hoarding would you like to take part'.

I wouldn't encourage her to apply for PIP. Even though she might get it, I don't think an extra source of income is likely to be helpful. Isn't she just going to spend it on more books. If she was amenable to getting a cleaner, paying for help to declutter or paying for therapy/counselling then I'd help her.