What is the correct answer to the question?

[FutureGadgetsLab]

A practise English paper for year 6 question. The question was to work out whether something was certain, possible or impossible. So "I may go to Ella's house" is possible, "I am going out" is definite and so on.

The question was "it may rain cats and dogs, if we have a storm"

What would your answer to this question be? I'm convinced the answer book is wrong.

Using your wheelchair example (a little strange, but it works), in everyday life, ramps or lifts or whatever else should be provided so the wheelchair user can get to wherever they want to go. This seems the same as me saying a teacher should differentiate and use different methods to teach depending on the child; a SENCO may need to get involved and every effort should be made to enable everyone to maximise their potential.

HOWEVER, when there's a stair climbing test, you can't turn them in to a ramp for everyone as it defeats the purpose of the test. It would be ramp climbing not stair using.

This was an English language test and because your child has (suspected) ASD means they may do badly because of the way they're wired, then that's just the way it is.

The special or personalised treatment comes in the classroom, not the examination hall.

You didn't address mg point about howntye question, if worded without the metaphor, wouldn't test them in the same way.

Crying 'discrimination' because the question wasn't worded to suit your child's suspected condition seems ridiculous. How do you suggest mathsexams be adapted so they don't discriminate against people with discalclia (sp?)?

potatoes metaphors aren't part of grammar. Numbers are a part of mathematics. There is a huge difference.

If the test was on metaphors, your point would be fair. But it wasn't.

Do you disagree with some SN kids getting readers? I'm only asking because you said adjustments shouldn't be made in the examination.

Only in a tornado if people don't secure their pets

So people thinking that it's OK to ask questions that disadvantage some students, why do we have legislation about these issues?

It is incredibly difficult to get laws passed. Getting a law passed which helps a small minority of people is almost impossible. Yet, there are laws which protect people with impairments, and being on the spectrum is defined under those laws as being a recognised disability. It is a legal requirement to make reasonable adjustments to accommodate people with impairments.

Wording a test clearly doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

So - NOT wording the question to allow for people with a legally protected impairment is actually breaking the law. It is just as illegal shutting the door on a person in a wheelchair or shouting abuse at someone.

But by adding the metaphor in, it tested the students understanding of modal verbs when taken out of context.

If every question was like this it would be poor form. Having some questions like this adds the extra level of difficulty to further assess individual students.

I'm obviously making up the percentages and simplifying it but in an exam of 100 questions, there should be one that every child can answer, there should be 50 questions that half the children can answer. There should be one question that only the top 1% of students can answer. That's the way that exams give a fair idea of exactly where a students ability starts and ends. This is a question that tests students ability to see beyond their understanding of the world and look at the grammar. Besides which, posted mentioned their child (ASD?) thought about it and said yes because of weather systems creating los pressures, sucking animals up etc.

By 'reader' do you mean someone who reads the question to the student? If so, yes that's fine (for this exam) as long as they do nothing besides read the exact question. It's still the students understanding of grammar being tested. The same way a scribe for a student without arms still tests the students English. The same way a lower lab bench for someone in a wheelchair doesn't alter the scientific knowledge being assessed.

You say metaphors aren't a part of grammar which is true to a certain extsnt but there are only so many times I can explain how this particular question tested a students true understanding of the subject being assessed.

HOWEVER, when there's a stair climbing test, you can't turn them in to a ramp for everyone as it defeats the purpose of the test. It would be ramp climbing not stair using.

But you, presumably, wouldn't expect a wheelchair using person to take part in the stair climbing test, because that would be demoralising and hugely inappropriate?

Thus, if you were to have a test that could measure both wheelchair users and non-wheelchair users ability at the same time and in the same way then it would have to be the ramp climbing test, or indeed a test focused completely differently - say a test on 'effectively accessing buildings'.

So to drag my, now limping, analogy back to ASD kids, you would have to do one of the following: exclude ASD kids and give them a different sort of test, have the test without those questions that are deliberately misleading and unclear, or perhaps restructure the purpose of the test completely and consider that the end result is the most important part (the getting into the building). In fact, that would be my preferred option - testing their ability to communicate effectively and correctly using the English language in whichever way suits their particular needs. I don't doubt that would be a lot harder to implement, but then, I suppose putting the ramps into historic buildings was harder than not doing it.

Your argument is currently, no we will test people on stairs because we've always used stairs and the stairs themselves are more important than the building and if wheelchair users have a problem with that, then they just need to accept that they are not as good at getting into buildings as non-wheelchair users.

Unless, of course, you believe that English tests in primary schools should measure something other than correct and effective use of the English language - maybe a competition in who knows the most about clauses. I suppose that's a position you can take, but it seems more of a niche interest than most people will need in their adult life.

Crying 'discrimination' because the question wasn't worded to suit your child's suspected condition seems ridiculous.

I'm not 'crying discrimination', although thank you for your choice of phrase. I'm questioning the method of assessment for a fundamental life skill. You seem to think it's very important to finely and carefully grade each individual child according to a set of criteria that don't suit a large number of people. I don't agree with you and I think that way of doing things is probably creating adults without the love of books and poetry that has enriched my life.

How do you suggest mathsexams be adapted so they don't discriminate against people with discalclia (sp?)?

Well, since you asked, I looked this up, and this is what Disability Rights UK says about dyscalculia and exam support:

Use of assistive technology in exams
Use of a separate exam room, with an invigilator
Scribes, amanuenses or notetakers, proof-reader, support worker, and use of amanuenses in exams
Extra time to read, understand and prepare answers
Oral examinations instead of, or in addition to, the written examination.

Interestingly, they say this about ASD conditions and exams:

Materials in literal language, including exam papers
Extra time to read, understand, and produce answers in exams
Use of a separate room with an invigilator
Exam paper written on plain paper in one colour
Use of a prompter to keep you focused during exams
Allowing students to present to academic staff or make a video presentation instead of written assignments.

To be honest, that's all a bit 'putting a cherry on shit' for my liking, it would be better to revisit a system that only works for a certain section of society, rather than adding extras here and there to try and improve the experience of a significant minority, but I don't expect everyone to share that view. I find it surprising that anyone would just say, 'Well, that's the way it is. Deal with it.'

So people thinking that it's OK to ask questions that disadvantage some students, why do we have legislation about these issues?

We don't.

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So - NOT wording the question to allow for people with a legally protected impairment is actually breaking the law.

Ah, the well known I Have No Clue What I'm Saying act of 1867

By 'reader' do you mean someone who reads the question to the student? If so, yes that's fine (for this exam) as long as they do nothing besides read the exact question. It's still the students understanding of grammar being tested. The same way a scribe for a student without arms still tests the students English. The same way a lower lab bench for someone in a wheelchair doesn't alter the scientific knowledge being assessed.

Fair enough, thanks for answering.

Re your last point, why not have a nonsense question like Bertie suggested? Like "If flump flibs, it may flob". That separates out people who are getting by on literal knowledge and is accessible for someone with ASD.

You say metaphors aren't a part of grammar which is true to a certain extsnt but there are only so many times I can explain how this particular question tested a students true understanding of the subject being assessed.

But it doesn't work for an ASD student because it isn't accessible to them in the same way as it is to you. Because of a disability! But they're to be marked the same way as someone without that disability. You aren't testing their true understanding because you've thrown in something that they are not able (or as able) to process. How is that the right way to assess people?

But it doesn't work for an ASD student because it isn't accessible to them in the same way as it is to you. Because of a disability! But they're to be marked the same way as someone without that disability. You aren't testing their true understanding because you've thrown in something that they are not able (or as able) to process. How is that the right way to assess people?

Exactly. Our minds work completely differently so it isn't testing the same thing.

kickass: So people thinking that it's OK to ask questions that disadvantage some students, why do we have legislation about these issues?

herecomethepotatoes: We don't.

Err... we do. Well, not specifically, but it appears to be part of the Equality Act 2010. From Disability Rights UK again:

"If you have a disability, health condition or specific learning difficulty such as dyslexia, you may need certain facilities, assistive technology or support services to enable you to make the most of your studies or training. This can include alternative exam or assessment arrangements. The Equality Act 2010 calls the arrangements that your education provider makes to meet these needs ‘reasonable adjustments’. For more information about the Equality Act please see section 7.

This factsheet provides suggestions on the adjustments you may need while studying. It is not a definitive or comprehensive list and the adjustments are not listed in any order of priority.

Suggestions are listed under various impairment headings as students and education providers often say this is a useful way of seeing examples. However it should be borne in mind that ‘disability’ only arises when students have to interact with inaccessible courses and education institutions. The focus should be on removing disabling barriers rather than thinking that the ‘problem’ is caused by the student’s condition. Discriminatory attitudes are also one of the barriers to disabled people accessing education opportunities and colleges and universities should take steps to address this.

What is considered a ‘reasonable adjustment’ depends on individual circumstances."

www.disabilityrightsuk.org/adjustments-disabled-students

So - there may be some debate about what a 'reasonable adjustment' is, but as before in the case of ASD students it may well be:

"Materials in literal language, including exam papers"

My emphasis, by the way.

Taking the wheelchair example - it's reasonable that a stair climbing test isn't going to work for them. They're going to perform poorly on that test because the specific thing being tested (stair climbing) is not an ability they have.

But what about if it's a test of maths but the exam hall is up a flight of stairs? Should they be excluded then because they can't get in to the test?

Taking Dyscalculia - it's reasonable to expect that they will struggle with maths, physics, accounting, engineering...and as you get further through education you're likely to make course choices reflecting that. But it would be unfair for an english exam to include a question that requires you to do a sum in order to be able to answer it.

Or say they're taking a home economics practical cooking exam. Now from what I am aware when you get to the stage of doing say GCSE/A level the practical exam involves all of the prep too - you have to get all your own equipment out, do the food prep, cook, clean up etc. If the equipment is stored somewhere that a wheelchair user can't get at it easily then I think most people would say it's reasonable for this equipment to be brought to them. But- that then means they're technically not sitting the same exam as going and getting the equipment takes time. You could argue that's an advantage. Likewise clearing up takes time but they might not be able to do all of the required tasks. You could argue they're sitting an easier exam.

I don't think people should get extra marks in general but I think that when exams are being planned and prepared we should do everything possible to make them inclusive to a wide range of disabilities, and that encompasses a lot of different things:
-physical access to the exam hall/room;
-Scribes;
-questions being read out for those with visual impairments;
-considering the choice of colour used in questions (e.g. a geography diagram) so that someone colour blind can still interpret it;
-choosing a font for the questions which is clear and easy to read so that it doesn't unneccesarily disadvantage someone with dyslexia (so no exam papers in scripty fonts);
-questions clearly worded to not exclude people with autism and other similar conditions.

and so on.

You differentiate the teaching methods, absolutely, but you also do your best to make sure that you're not in some way making the exam inaccessible and therefore discriminating against someone who has the ability to complete it.

But none of those things you mentioned alter the actual exam do they IdBuyThat? They enable the examined student to produce their best work. They don't mention anything about questions being worded differently so everyone of every ability can answer the question s correctly.

This may surprise you considering im such a grammar geek, but English Language as a life skill isn't exactly what's being assessed hereand it's fairly debatable that accurate SPaG is important. Whats being assessed here is actually slightly obscure grammatical rules. There are other exams and other methods of assessing a students ability to write coherently, to understand fiction and non-fiction texts and all other aspects of English and they should be assessed differently. An English literature exam focuses on something different altogether.

I've explained why this nquestion was necessary. You don't like it because you think your child wouldn get it wrong.

People do get assessed and if that's right or wrong is for another thread.

Potatoes it literally (lol!) states that materials should be in literal language. That exam paper wasn't.

This is nothing to do with being annoyed that their child would get it wrong. It's to do with wanting their child to be treated fairly along with others with ASD.

It's a bit like supporting marriage equality despite being heterosexual or supporting black lives matter if you're not black - it's possible to support a group because you think it's right, not because it affects you.

If flump flibs, it may flob

That could be a question too. Remember this cats and dogs question was one of many. It wasn't a pass or fail single question exam.

The flumps flibs flob question would need clarification that flump is a noun, flibs is a verb and flob is a verb.

Questions along those lines are actually used in first semester Eng. Lang. exams as they test all kinds of things. Students would evalute them to truth tables, logical values etc. They add nonsense (metaphors) to test the grammer.

potatoes So if that is acceptable and accessible, why use the one that isn't accessible in the exam at all?

Does the literal language extend to Eng Lit?

But none of those things you mentioned alter the actual exam do they IdBuyThat? They enable the examined student to produce their best work. They don't mention anything about questions being worded differently so everyone of every ability can answer the question s correctly.

Umm - this potentially would, wouldn't it?

"Materials in literal language, including exam papers"

I've explained why this nquestion was necessary. You don't like it because you think your child wouldn get it wrong.

Now you're being a little out of order. I couldn't give a single fuck if my DD got it right or not because I don't consider it a particularly useful way of assessing her abilities.

Having said that you'll see upthread that I did ask my DD the question and she did get it right. The part I found interesting was how she got there, and how much tougher it was for her than for someone NT.

I was asked in a physics exam to calculate the work done in lifting an object from the floor onto a table. The height of the table was specified, and it was also specified how high in the air the object was lifted above the table before it was put down.

I used the height of the table in my calculation, because as far as I was concerned the work done in lifting it above table height was an unnecessary waste of energy. I was told my answer was wrong, I should have used the total height the object was raised by, before being put down.

If the question had been, how much work did the person do, without the additional clause "in lifting the object onto the table", I would have given the answer deemed to be correct.

It's roughly 40 years later, and I'm still bitter about this.

potatoes So if that is acceptable and accessible, why use the one that isn't accessible in the exam at all?

What do you mean?

My DD has ASD. She would be completely and utterly bewildered by the question and write 'don't be so silly'. Cats and dogs can't fly. Or something similar.

It's a bloody stupid question. Couldn't they have just put it's going to rain?

Potatoes I mean if Y is confusing to people with ASD, and X tests the grammar ability (the thing that is being tested) in a way that is accessible to everyone, why use any Y questions?

Does the literal language extend to Eng Lit?

I'm not an examiner trained in making exam questions accessible, but I assume it would in that all questions should be asked in clear and literal language. I don't imagine anyone thinks the texts used should be entirely literal, because much of the finest English literature is figurative, inventive and metaphorical. The point is that in an Eng Lit exam an ASD student would be expecting to encounter such use of language and so would often be able to adjust accordingly. It would, I suppose, possibly take them longer, so perhaps a reasonable adjustment would be an extended time period to answer the same questions.

I'm not entirely sure of your point though? Are you now determined to find an exam that ASD students just have to accept they 'aren't as good at'?