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What is the correct answer to the question?

299 replies

FutureGadgetsLab · 04/05/2016 13:32

A practise English paper for year 6 question. The question was to work out whether something was certain, possible or impossible. So "I may go to Ella's house" is possible, "I am going out" is definite and so on.

The question was "it may rain cats and dogs, if we have a storm"

What would your answer to this question be? I'm convinced the answer book is wrong.

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FutureGadgetsLab · 04/05/2016 15:20

but unless the question was clear that you were only to infer the answer from the grammatical structure of the sentence

That's my main source of angst with this. It just said possible, certain or impossible. It didn't make it clear it was to be decided solely on grammar.

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BaronessEllaSaturday · 04/05/2016 15:21

The reason metaphors are used is because it is a more realistic testing of the grammar rather than a strictly correct sentence. It wouldn't matter whether the phrase was "it may rain bathtubs, if we have a storm" The question isn't about whether it can physically happen but whether the sentence structure itself is saying it is possible or not. If you stick strictly to physical possibilities then you can not be certain whether the grammar is understood or not. To give the other example given "I may go to Ella's house" if you look at that solely logically then the answer is only possible if you know an Ella but you wouldn't question it the same.

miaowmix · 04/05/2016 15:22

FutureGadgets, I would think the question works on the assumption that the majority of people are familiar with this very common (in English) expression...

FutureGadgetsLab · 04/05/2016 15:27

Baroness the question about Ella's house though, is possible even if you don't know an Ella. There are Ellas who have houses, and it is possible you will end up in one. Unlikely if you don't know one, but not impossible.

Cats and dogs raining is something different, I understand they are trying to make it realistic but there are less confusing metaphors out there surely?!

Miaow is it really that common? I've probably heard it about four times in my life, and never truly understood it!

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miaowmix · 04/05/2016 15:30

Future I genuinely think it is, it's something I've heard my entire life (am in my 40s) and most people I know have used it too. I'm in London, be interesting to see if others from other places use it too.

But I'm equally amazed you haven't heard it much!

FutureGadgetsLab · 04/05/2016 15:31

Miaow the friends and family I asked are from the same area and they hadn't heard it much either, so it's either regional or we are anomalies!

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herecomethepotatoes · 04/05/2016 15:34

Future It's an English test so by definition it discriminates against people for whom English isn't a first language.

Testing whether you know an idiom in a grammar test is ridiculous - I see this as the absolute opposite. The idiom is of zero significance. Look at the grammar. The idiom is to check that students understand the language (what with this being an English test).

Do you really, honestly believe it discriminates against people with ASD? The exam is a test of this particular branch of academia and perhaps people with ASD / people like youarekiddingme's son will fail but that's because they aren't good at this subject or they don't have a natural aptitude for it. Discriminate (ignoring the negative connotations) is exactly what an exam is designed to do.

Do you think your child would have changed their answer if it said "it it gramatically possible"? If so, there's an easy solution. Explain to them that in an English Language exam, they should mentally insert the word 'gramatically' into 99% of the questions.

AugustaFinkNottle - herecome, why would examinees base their answer any more on their experience of the physical world with "it may rain heavily" than they would with "it may rain cats and dogs"? Surely they mean the same thing?

I'm not sure if you're serious? Assuming it's a sensible question;

The cats and dogs aspect of the question is irrelevant. People who take the second meaning to its literal extreme may want to answer the question as 'extremely unlikely'. The literal thinkers would remember the last time they were caught in a heavy downpour and answer, 'yes it might, because it did on dd/mm/yyyy'. In modal logic / grammar / modal verbs (call it what you will), there is no difference between extremely unlikely, nearly impossible or might / may.

If this was a philosophy exam then the acceptable answers may be very different but it isn't. It's a language / grammar exam and to pass it one must think like a linguist.

KindDogsTail · 04/05/2016 15:34

Isn't year 6 supposed to start being able to understand underlying meanings/idioms/metaphors?

As wherin just said it is a learning objective.

That will be the basis later say, of reading poetry or Jane Eyre with understanding.
The next year is senior school.

It is raining cats and dogs, is a well known phrase and it is not a literal but poetical statement.

Some even quite young children would get a real kick out of this sort of ambiguity between literal and literary expression. They can have a lot of sense of humour over this sort of thing.

It may rain cats and dogs, if there is a storm is possible

I think I have heard someone with Aspergers (ASD0 may find it more difficult to recognise the literal from the figurative.

However it would also be a difficult question for anyone who does not have quite a good knowledge of English language.

herecomethepotatoes · 04/05/2016 15:35

That's my main source of angst with this. It just said possible, certain or impossible. It didn't make it clear it was to be decided solely on grammar.

We can infer it from the fact it was an English examination and not philosophy.

Shakey15000 · 04/05/2016 15:36

I've heard the phrase often. I still think it would achieve the desired answer had it been worded "It may rain heavily later, if we have a storm"

Less ambiguous for us literal thinkers. DS 8 has his English test today and I know he would have answered "impossible" to the original question. And I would argue he was correct.

MaynJune · 04/05/2016 15:38

When I was a child I had a little umbrella with 'It's raining cats and dogs' written all over it so I was familiar with the expression.
I don't say it though, and I wouldn't assume eleven-year-olds would be familiar with it. It sounds a bit old-fashioned.( I'm in Scotland).

FutureGadgetsLab · 04/05/2016 15:39

Potatoes

Fair enough regarding kids who don't speak English as a first language.

My issue is the test didn't state that it was only considering grammar - it just asked whether it was possible.

I do think it discriminates against people with ASD, we are often very good grammatically but get confused by metaphors.

It wasn't my child, it was someone else's. I personally would have answered it differently if it had specified it wanted me to only focus on the grammar, and I can remember a specific instance at school where I had a similar issue. So I do think it's very inconsiderate of those with ASD.

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herecomethepotatoes · 04/05/2016 15:40

However it would also be a difficult question for anyone who does not have quite a good knowledge of English language

I would absolutely disagree. I think it comes down to preparation for the specific exam.

I went to an expensive school. It was good, but it was extremely concerned with exam results. We spent our final year of GCSEs looking at past papers. We understood exactly what the examiner wanted us to write but it didn't help us as far as an understanding of the subject goes.

FutureGadgetsLab · 04/05/2016 15:41

We can infer it from the fact it was an English examination and not philosophy.

Again that wouldn't always be obvious to someone with ASD. Questions are answered "honestly".

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splendide · 04/05/2016 15:41

He wouldn't be correct Shakey because it's not about whether the event is possible it's about whether the speaker is certain.

He should also answer possible if the phrase was "it may rain dragons' tongues later, if there is a storm".

dowhatnow · 04/05/2016 15:42

That's a crap question. I am very familair with the phrase but I wouldn't have known whether it was a trick question or not either.

FutureGadgetsLab · 04/05/2016 15:42

it's not about whether the event is possible it's about whether the speaker is certain.

It didn't ask that though - it asked if it was possible or not.

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splendide · 04/05/2016 15:42

Do you have the precise question wording Future? We're all really guessing what the question actually was.

heron98 · 04/05/2016 15:43

But surely "I may go to Ella's house" could also mean "I have permission to go to Ella's house"?

splendide · 04/05/2016 15:44

Sorry cross posted with you Future - if the question was "is the event being spoken about possible" then it is confusing I agree. And I would probably say that it is certain to rain if there is a storm as rain is a necessary component of storms.

FutureGadgetsLab · 04/05/2016 15:45

Splendide No, but I can try and get hold of it next week if anyone is curious!

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FutureGadgetsLab · 04/05/2016 15:46

Splendide I think asking "is the speaker certain" would have reduced most of this comfusion.

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herecomethepotatoes · 04/05/2016 15:46

finally

It wasn't my child, it was someone else's. I personally would have answered it differently if it had specified it wanted me to only focus on the grammar, and I can remember a specific instance at school where I had a similar issue. So I do think it's very inconsiderate of those with ASD

It was an English exam so we can assume it wanted you to focus on the grammar. If it had been Eng. Lit. then there are all kinds of arguments either way.

I stick by my point that examinations are supposed to discriminate and like it or not, there are areas where people with ASD (or other SEN) won't do very well.

There's a photo that MN'ers like to ost showing people on boxes and it's supposed to demonstrate the difference between 'fair' and 'equal'. Well, I think exams are fair and test absolute understanding. They might not be equal but, if they did, what would be the point in them?

FutureGadgetsLab · 04/05/2016 15:50

Potatoes

Again people with ASD wouldn't necessarily assume that, even though they could have excellent grammatical skills.

I understand exams are supposed to test what you know. So how is this testing what someone with ASD knows? It's not.

I don't think exams are fair personally, I think they could be improved upon to test someone's knowledge of the subject and not their knowledge of the exam, which is a separate thing.

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Shakey15000 · 04/05/2016 15:50

I know what you're getting at splendide. It doesn't make the inference that someone thinks it's "possible" that dragon's tongues will rain down in the event of a storm Hmm correct though.

Why the insistence on ambiguity? ( from the question setters)

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