AIBU to think the teacher should not have said this?

[TheGoblinQueen2711]

According to another Mum, DSs class teacher told them yesterday that if the children do not do well on their SATs then the teachers will not get a payrise...
I will be asking my DS when he comes home but IF she did say this AIBU to think that this was a ridiculous thing to say to 10-11 year olds?
A) Does it even have any bearing on their wages?
B) It puts pressure on children who are already anxious about the exams.

Then all you can do is speak to his teacher if it does play on his mind so that the three of you can rectify it. The teacher is only human and you don't know the circumstances.

I once heard a teacher telling a year 3 class that her summer holiday would be spoiled if they didn't work hard at school. This was not SATS or exam related, but I felt that it was a bit of an unnecessary guilt trip

DS's class (Yr 10) were told by their teacher that "I'm stressed, therefore so should you be". This was for SATS, by the way.

In that year, DS changed from a very sunny, happy boy, to a little lad complaining of tummy-ache EVERY morning, developed eczema and was utterly miserable, angry and crying at the drop of a hat. DS was very young in his year (end of July birthday) and is dyslexic so had a learning difficulty, but the parents of very able, top-of-the-class children in that class were also saying that their children were incredibly stressed too.

I'm sure some parents do put pressure on their children to do well, I just said, "Do as well as you can, and don't worry about it", and I know many other parents who also didn't pile this pressure on their children. In this particular case, the stress and pressure most definitely came from the teaching staff.

If the stress and pressure comes from the teaching staff, it comes down TO them from the insane system of assessment we have. It's unrealistic to expect them to contain it all without any spilling over to the kids (although that's horrible, I know).
Teachers and pupils are victims alike in this insanity, I think. I was delighted to hear about the parents/children on no-school strikes to protest. We need more of them.

I would think it was said as light humour. There's been a lot around regarding sats, with the strike yesterday, maybe a pupil was asking the teacher about the purpose of sats and this was part of the response. I'm always wary of hear-say, without knowing the context in which something was said, anything can be twisted.
If it's true though I'm pretty disgusted, my son has mild Sen, he won't do well in his sats. I know it, his teacher knows it, it's ok. His teacher is brilliant though and he has trived so much since September. I would think it's horrific that she doesn't get a pay rise because he can't achieve those levels yet

I once taught a student who was targeted A* at GCSE but who was absolutely determined to do no work for his exam out of school.

He didn't care about the subject. All he was bothered about was getting a C. He wasn't going to take the subject at A level, nor anything remotely similar. He knew he could get a C without any revision whatsoever. It was a similar story for some of his other subjects.

He just didn't 'get' why all his teachers were getting so stressed about his shitty attitude towards studying.

In the end he got a B. It really messed up the class' progress as he was two grades below target. All the other students achieved their target grades, but as they were all A or A very few exceeded. At least 2 would have needed to get an A with a prediction of A in order for my progress to be 'flat'.

Luckily, my performance management wasn't quite as rigid at the time. This year (under a new HT) is a different story.

....and they wonder why 19 teachers are leaving our school this summer....

I do hope it was said in jest, IF it was even said at all.

The teacher in question is usually a pretty good teacher, so I'd be surprised if it was said with no humour.
Regardless, I do think it wasn't a comment that should be made to such young children. Especially as I know of at least 4 children, mine included, in that class that are struggling and feeling like they will fail already. Telling them that it will affect their teachers wages won't all of a sudden make them succeed. It's not like they aren't trying already.

DS does his best, all teachers have always said he tries so hard, he just often doesn't 'get' it. This won't make him suddenly be better at English etc, it will just make him spiral if past events have been anything to go by.
That said, this time I see no signs of him spiralling, he hasn't even told me about this comment. I'm hoping he didn't hear, or that it simply hasn't affected him.

It sounds like a vicious circle Zedwoman. So students and parents potentially push for an "expected grade" in order to get good university offers but when that target is not reached it impacts your performance review. I don't disagree with it in principle, provided that the expected grade can be downgraded by the teacher due to non performance by the pupil, but in your example it sounds as though the sample base is simply far too small
In the end he got a B. It really messed up the class' progress as he was two grades below target. All the other students achieved their target grades, but as they were all A or A very few exceeded. At least 2 would have needed to get an A with a prediction of A in order for my progress to be 'flat'.

For a competent A level student I would have no problem in pointing out to them that their achievement or lack thereof, have a direct impact on the performance grade of their teacher. Whether it improves motivation at all is debatable but I don't think it does any harm to understand that it's a team effort to some extent.

I think there is a difference between 6-7 and 9-10 yr olds taking their SATS tests, as opposed to 15-16 yr olds taking GCSEs.

SATS tests are purely for the benefit of the school. GCSEs are for the benefit of the pupil.

ZedWoman He didn't have a shitty attitude, he had a very sensible attitude.

Surely the mistake was in targeting him an A*, did you assume he'd do more work or did he actively mislead you that he cared more for the subject?

Fred You don't think the teachers get to set the targets do you? A computer does it based on average KS2 or GCSE grade - regardless of SEN status, health or any other mitigating factors. I have a student who has been on and off school with a life threatening condition targeted for straight As before.

...and there's a difference between 'grin and bear it' with a worst subject and having an actual bad attitude. Believe it or not, teachers are not robots and know the difference well.

squizita So surely the computer knows about these students who make sane decisions about effort vs reward. But okay, the problem would've been a management team that failed to acknowledge sane decisions by the student, that didn't happen so wasn't a problem then. A failure of the management team is part of what standardised testing is attempting to root out, by identifying it, as much as individual failings.

It's not a shitty attitude to get a B or a C if that's all you need, the things you chose to do rather than waste time on getting an A are probably more valuable. But even if not, extra work that doesn't get you anywhere is not productive. Describing rational decisions as shitty is silly and I can see as very counterproductive if even a hint of that view point is carried through to the individual. As TreadSoftly says, describing the external cost of their rational decision to them would be reasonable.

YANBU, she should not have said that to the children even though it is true. It's not their problem and they don't need that additional pressure.

Iliveinthelighthouse
Not all children are academic or good on tests
she's the teacher teaching the children, so if they do all fail. Doesn't she need a kick up the arse

So is it her fault if they all fail or not? You seem to have contradicted yourself.

Fred with post-16 the failure would be with IAG (Individual Advice & Guidance) i.e. don't pick subjects you don't like because your mates/mum/TV says to.

No, the computer literally works it out by average past results. Not even single subject.

And what I was saying about attitude is there's a world of difference between someone making a rational decision over where they put their effort and just being arrogant and lazy. TBH it's a bit different at GCSE when students have core subjects - post 16 they shouldn't really be choosing something they don't have an interest in, or cannot at least make the best of.

Plus, students don't always know what they 'need'. If I had a pound for every child I've counselled away from thinking they only need a GCSE grade C in English to study medicine (or STEM at a Russell Group) because it's science based I'd have an extra holiday a year... and what's infuriating is when they and their parents come back 2 years later tearing their hair out about how no-one warned them they needed A*-B across the board.

From when I worked in other industries, it was similar with members of staff who loved the parts of the job they loved and neglected others (e.g. no paper work, no clear up etc).
Now I employ people I really do scour CVs for signs of that as it can cause huge issues within a team - not only in terms of performance but resentment and so forth. I didn't pick this up in a vacuum - in fact this came before I worked in education. I also know from peers who are employers in a range of sectors it can blight a CV. Obvious signs that you don't cope well with stuff that isn't your 'favourite thing' aren't great.

Fred

The target grades can be set as early as starting Reception. There's no point assuming leaders/ Ofsted will be sensible about it.

The baseline informs KS1 targets for SATs, which inform KS2 targets for SATs, which inform KS3 targets... And so on.

It makes for STUPID, IMPOSSIBLE targets sometimes... But your performance and pay is still judged on them (if your SLT is so inclined, and more and more are).

She still shouldn't have told the children.

I think it's a foolish thing to say, but I can't see why it might cause any distress for the children.

I once had a very compliant class who were stressed about OFSTED and I assured them that I was the one being watched, not them.

Well I asked DS 'Has your teacher said anything about the upcoming SATs?' And apparently she has told them all not to worry too much.

So it could be crossed wires. Could be he didn't hear her. Could be she never said it. Not sure it's the kind of thing a ten year old would come up with off the top of her head, but who knows.

Either way, DS, who is my main concern is seemingly unaffected. Is stressed about SATs in general but I've once again assured him that regardless of his results DH and I will be proud of him for giving it his best shot.
He is currently going over some SATs prep and seems to be doing well, so we shall just wait and see. He can't wait until it's all finished though

Well, that's exactly what I've told my children (as a parent).
I said, don't worry about them - SATS are a nonsense - they are testing you on things that even people at university get stuck on. However, do your best as your teacher, MrLovelyPrimaryTeacher might not get a pay rise unless you do your best.

Chinese whispers - another mum's child told her the teacher said this. You don't know what was said, or how, and you basically like the teacher, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Fred there is no way I would have targeted this student an A* in my subject. He was more than capable of achieving it (one of the brightest students I have ever taught) but was utterly bone idle when it came to doing anything that required any degree of effort. He openly admitted to doing no revision away from school.

He wanted to study music, maths and physics. He therefore felt that anything other than music, maths and physics was totally useless. As long as he passed it at grade C, he really didn't care.

Trust me, his attitude was shitty. I have taught thousands of students in my time and I can recognise a shitty attitutde when I come across one.

Oh, and target grades are based on FFT (based on KS2 SATs) and MidYs predictions, not teacher judgment.

Sounds like a joke to me.

Ds turned up to school with his right arm in plaster in year 2 and his teacher staggered back dramatically and said "Oh, no! One of my level 3 writers! I won't get a pay rise this year!" Ds and the class thought it was hilarious.

I was told by a year 11 student last week that I was only sitting with her at 5pm for the third time that week so I would get a pay rise. She really didn't get that whilst yes, I would love a pay rise because I deserve one with all the effort I put in, nothing on this planet would drag me away from time with my children if I didn't give a toss what the outcome was for you personally. I am sitting there at 5pm because I want you to pass, because I want to see you reach your potential, despite the fact you have spent the last two years acting like a total fool in my class.

But hey ho, it's all about the money...