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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Tradesman's quote includes his petrol - AIBU to refuse to pay it?

55 replies

Sidge · 02/05/2016 22:44

So we had a chap do a small job for us. Finally received his invoice.

Labour costs - fine (but I hardly think 10-12.30 counts as a half days work...)
Material costs - fine

But he's included a charge of £20 for petrol. I mean who does that? He lives locally and got the materials locally so how he used 20 quids worth of fuel I don't know. And surely your fuel costs are included in your labour quote?

So AIBU to pay the invoice minus the £20 for fuel?

OP posts:

FasterThanASnakeAndAMongoose · 02/05/2016 23:51

If there's no mention of fuel costs on his original estimate then definitely challenge it.

Also, have a look on Citizens' Advice. There's some useful info on estimates and how close they have to be to the actual invoice.

I'm also going through the joys of dealing with an unreasonable builder and I feel your pain

penguinplease · 03/05/2016 00:03

Ask him for a breakdown of mileage. Point out that approved hmrc guidelines on mileage is 45p a mile and at what point did he spend £20 on petrol for your job.
Piss take!

Balletgirlmum · 03/05/2016 00:19

A tradesman can charge whatever he wants for mileage. The 45p is the amount that a self employed person is able to offset against tax, that's all.

penguinplease · 03/05/2016 00:42

Yes I know , that doesn't stop it being underhand and unjustified.
I was just trying to be helpful!

Janecc · 03/05/2016 01:47

If he didn't mention a fuel charge, why should you pay it? I would ask for clarification on that one. A pp is saying maybe he's adding it on because his estimate was too low and he wouldn't make a profit. I don't think this is the case from what you said as he's charged more than the estimate. I must say in my experience with tradesmen, the estimate is the final bill unless you as the client makes changes. But then they know I will use them again. Is he not very experiences as he should know material costs?

whatnoww · 03/05/2016 02:21

He didn't use the petrol as part of the job did he? For a mower or chainsaw or something. In that case we would put that on the invoice. Costs of fule is included in our quotes (we always give a detailed quote of what is/isn't included, customers can also try it on!)

Estimates are a pain. Get a quote next time

Just5minswithDacre · 03/05/2016 02:43

Petrol for his vehicle or petrol for his tools/generator?

Just5minswithDacre · 03/05/2016 02:45

X post with whatnow I get compacent about refreshing while I potter about with insomnia.

If it is for a vehicle, are you outside his usual area? (The reasonableness of that probably varies by trade.)

Janecc · 03/05/2016 02:53

Hello Just I don't have insomnia either!

Original poster

Sidge · 03/05/2016 11:48

Thanks for all your replies - I'm glad you feel the same way!

The whole job was a bit shonky, basically he was an additional contractor working with the guy doing our primary job. We needed some 'making good' and skirting board for the gap left by the primary job, he was on site with the main man and said "oh I can do that for you next week". Grand we said, how much? Not sure he said, depends on the cost of the wood for the skirting. Probably about £150-200.

Fair dos said we, see you next week. Give us that in writing and we'll proceed. He pitched up a week later with the wood, no quote. I said again how much and he showed me the invoice for the wood and it was reasonable so I let him crack on without a formal quote, which with hindsight was daft but he'd said £150-200 so I assumed that's what it would be. Did the job, said he'd invoice me and left.

Yesterday he emailed the invoice for £295 including his fuel charge

No petrol-driven tools, no travelling - he's local and the place he got the wood from is in our small town.

I'm going to call him now and say I'm happy to pay him £200 as agreed, possibly up to £225 but no way am I paying him £295 and I'm definitely not paying 20 quid for his petrol!

OP posts:

Balletgirlmum · 03/05/2016 12:43

I definatly wouldn't pay now you've fully explained.

Any extras should be agreed in advance & anything more than about 20 % over the original estimate should definatly be agreed in advance

He's trying it on.

ClopySow · 03/05/2016 12:51

You surely can't both charge for fuel and claim it as a tax write off? So you get your fuel paid for and you then use it as an expense to reduce your tax bill even though the expense was someone elses?

Balletgirlmum · 03/05/2016 13:03

Of course you can clopy

Balletgirlmum · 03/05/2016 13:12

You pay tax on profit. A customer can be charged 45p per mile but hmrc say that isn't profit as it costs 45p per mile to run a vehicle.

If you charged a customer 50p per mile you would only offset 45p & pay tax on the extra 5p.

Whiskeywithwater · 03/05/2016 13:20

If you run your own business in a trade then yes, hate to burst your bubble but running costs will be included in a price. Also ref the half day, technically it's not an entire 'half day' but realistically he wouldn't be able to do another job in the remainder of that 'half say' so is normal to charge for a whole half day ..
Having said that I don't understand why he's broken that cost out - why highlight it? Also I'd want to know why it's significantly higher than the estimate. Norm if that's looking likely to be the case is to have a chat to the customer about it first before going ahead.

thecitydoc · 03/05/2016 13:34

I am self employed consultant. My costs are disaggregated as follows:
day rate for the job
expenses - travel (£0.45 per mile) plus subsistence and other costs incurred, usually capped at a % of fee
VAT

he is not being unreasonable to charge for petrol, but it would be better if he charged £0.45p per mile, the HMRC approved rate.

sparechange · 03/05/2016 13:36

What sort of trade?

I had a carpenter make some shelves for us. He built them offsite at his workshop and then charged me a delivery charge to come back and fit them, which I think was to cover his fuel? He charged his time on top as a 'fitting charge'

The only thing I was about what he added VAT on the parking charge, which was on-street pay and display, and not subject to VAT, but it was only about 30p so not worth griping about

ClashCityRocker · 03/05/2016 13:41

Spare change, he was correct to add vat to it regardless of the supply to him being exempt - as he was recharging it to you the liability follows the rest of the supply, so would have been standard rated.

ClashCityRocker · 03/05/2016 13:44

As in, hmrc view the car parking cost as just part of the cost componement of supplying construction services to you, so it's all standard rated

yes I'm a square

ClashCityRocker · 03/05/2016 13:49

I agree he's not unreasonable to charge - he can charge what he wants after all but he is being unreasonable not to disclose this prior to agreeing the work.

Whether £20 is reasonable is neither here or there - it's his prerogative to charge what he likes - although he can only claim relief in line with tax laws so 45p a mile for smaller businesses or a % of overall car expenses. He will presumably be declaring the £20 as part of his trading income so will be effectively taxed on the excess over the amount of tax-relievable expenditure.

But he should have made it clear to op what was included in the price.

herecomethepotatoes · 03/05/2016 13:55

Having read the update, I think he's being a bit cheeky.

Perhaps you should also, in future, get everything (quote or estimate) with at least a basic breakdown so you've got some comeback.

Blondeshavemorefun · 03/05/2016 15:46

Any chance the wood was 150/200 then plus £95 for daily rate?

So he only quoted materials?

Moral of story - always get a quote

DF always put price including materials and labour £X so the client knows excatly what they are paying - plus gets 50% deposit up front as had had jobs he's had the OK from customer - DF buys materials and then person rings up and cancels jobs /postpones /said been done by someone else - after agreeing to his quote

Original poster

Sidge · 03/05/2016 16:08

The wood was only £50 blondes - he showed me the invoice from the supplier.

I've called him, and discussed the invoice. He agreed to £220 and didn't argue that charging for his fuel without prior agreement was cheeky.

I have always got proper quotes from tradesmen, in writing. This is the first time I didn't (despite asking) because he just turned up to do the work, with the materials.

Lesson learned! And I certainly won't be using him again.

OP posts:

Janecc · 03/05/2016 18:41

The day rate for a basic carpenter where I live is £140 but can be as much as £200 for a skilled crafts person. Skirting boards come under basic carpentry. When I used my moe skilled guy to do more basic stuff, he charged me £160 and did a superb job and much better than the guy at £140. Labour is more expensive in the central south and London. I don't know about south west/north.

Janecc · 03/05/2016 18:45

And the tradesperson is within their rights to get materials during this day rate time. I have never been charged for fuel for a local job, when my builder went further, he charged me an extra £10/20 for a the bigger commute but that was far less than his actual hourly rate and was really more for fuel costs.

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