Children speaking their first language to eachother at primary school

[languageissues]

Does anyone have any experience of this? Where there is a handful of children whose first language is not English, who are young (say between 5 and 8) do teachers require them to speak English at school? If not, how do they supervise as they cannot understand what is being said? I am concerned about bullying and not appropriate language being used (my dc is one of the children affected) and I wondered how will the teachers react if we ask them to require that English is spoken while on school grounds? I would be really grateful for views.

Your child is being bullied in their first language? you need to go to the teacher about this school needs to be aware this is going on

Bill, I cross-posted before I had seen the suggestion of English when in class, which seems very reasonable. I quite agree with this.

But when it comes to the playground, then the teacher will have to rely on hearsay anyway.

Also, I get the argument about the privilege being withdrawn- except that we don't know whether all the minority speakers are joining in the bullying. If not, then it seems to me that all minority speakers, including innocent ones, will lose the privilege of being able to use their own language whereas the English speakers will be able to go on enjoying that privilege. Which is a bit more tricky if you think of it in terms of privilege: you are now going to lose a privilege because somebody else, who has nothing to do with you, has abused that privilege, but it only affects you because you happen to be from the same country as them.

The language is not a side issue:
OP's DD to teacher: "Miss, X, Y and Z said at the playground in [language] that my mum was a fat slut".
X, Y and Z in unison: "No, we didn't."

IonaNE, how is that different from

OP's DD to teacher: "Miss, X, Y and Z said at the playground [when you weren't able to hear because we were at the other end of the playground and you have 150 children to keep an eye on] that my mum was a fat slut".

X, Y and Z in unison: "No, we didn't."

What I do see is different is the following situation:

Classroom

X, Y, Z [in x language]: dd's mum is a fat slut

Dd; they just said my mum is a fat slut.

Teacher's authority undermined because if dd is telling the truth, these children are bullying right under her eye and she can't know for sure. DD also more upset because she senses that the adults are powerless.

So the suggestion of a classroom language makes good sense.

I would not be at all happy if a school insisted on English at all times due to some children using inappropriate words in another language. If a child says something inappropriate in English, no one would say he/she should be forced to remain silent, simply to moderate his/her language. If this school were to ban the use of other languages due to the misbehaviour of a few children, that would be a huge overreaction and wildly unfair. Address the misbehaviour by all means, but a sledgehammer approach would be utterly wrong IMO.

It's difficult. On the one hand, teachers should be able to recognise bullying from tone and body language, it shouldn't require understanding of the language.

OTOH DS is at school in Germany and the children often say "shit" and "fucking" because they aren't swearwords in German and the teachers don't correct them. In fact I don't expect them to, and I just say to DS that he's not to use those words at home, and he doesn't (though I've heard him saying shit with his friends when he thinks I'm not listening, but only in an "Oh, shit!!" way)

I think you should have a word with the teachers and ask them to keep an eye. If something threatening is being said it should be obvious regardless of language. If there are particular phrases being used then perhaps you could tell the teachers that these phrases are offensive. But I don't think you can really expect them to police offensive language used in another language, unless it's a name or something like that.

corythatwas, if it happens in a language the teachers and all other children understand, sooner or later a teacher or a child outside the bullying group is going to overhear something and verify the story. If it's in another language not commonly understood by the teachers and other children, it will only be one child's word against 3 other children. The bullying 3 will of course stick up for one another, so it will be 3 testimonies of "Scenario A" (no bullying) and one for "Scenario B" (bullying).

Tricky. Most bilingual kids tend to operate in English outside of the home/at school, after all, that's the language used to deliver the educational content. However, I have trilingual and quadralingual kids-Tamil, French, English and Romanian, French, Spanish, English and if they're talking to one another, I don't insist on a particular language.

Deal with the bullying, not the language issue.

According to DD1, who is at a bilingual school, in class the kids have to use only the language being used for that class. In the playground they use whatever they like. DD1 says she uses language 1 and language 2 equally, but we use both at home. But if other children join in who aren't so confident with language 2 they will often switch to language 1. Sometimes she talks to her friends X and Y in language 3.

I guess it depends on whether it's the playground or the classroom where this is happening. Classroom yes, but I really can't see how they would even monitor it in the playground, except suggesting that the children with additional languages only speak these with other children who understand.

I think it's mad that notions of privilege and comparisons with explicitly colonial language rules are being used here. This is not a bilingual setting (unless I've massively misread the OP). The other langauge is being used to conceal bullying. Under those circumstances it's perfectly reasonable to expect the children involved to speak English so interactions can be monitored. until they can be trusted to be civil in their own language.

Are there personnel at the school that do speak the language? Another teacher, janitor, secretary, aide? Could that person be drafted in to listen for bullying?

I grew up going to school in So California with a large Spanish-speaking community. Whilst the 'language of the school' was English, there were staff in various positions that spoke Spanish. And most of the teachers soon learnt to recognize dirty or vulgar words and 'name-calling' words (mostly because we all joyfully learnt and used them on the playground ).

Are these things being said away from staff or under their noses because the bullies know it's not understood? If the former it's no different than most bullying (which takes place 'in secret'). If the latter, then getting someone in who does understand the language (especially if they don't appear to at first) might help.

I say all this as someone who twice had to adapt to new foreign languages in primary school when my family lived overseas. Having a 'secret language' teachers can't understand is a red rag to a bull and children will absolutely exploit it. It's totally reasonable to nip this in the bud. I really don't understand what privilege has to do with anything.

manatee, the problem arises if the language is not only used to conceal bullying but possibly also by other, completely innocent students for innocent reasons

do you then tell the other students that they cannot use their language even when among themselves, because it now has connotations of bullying? tricky

not sure I agree that if teachers would be bound to overhear playground bullying sooner or later: never happened to my bullies

but agree that there is a serious issue if bullies are growing so bold that they can get away with it under the teacher's nose

I have 2 Lithuanian boys in my class and they actually speak English to each other in the playground and I've heard them doing the same while out in town with their families.

My children speak a second language, which a few others at school speak. I expect them to speak English at school, they are young and I want the teachers to know what they are saying and what is being said to them.

Dh grew up in India. From 4 his education was in English, and that was the only language spoken during school hours by all teachers and pupils.

Cory - I think it's just tough if the language is also being used for innocent reasons. The kids need to learn English anyway. If it's being used for bullying that needs to be stopped, at least in the classroom.

Teachers cannot (and should not) monitor every interaction among children. This inevitably leads to situations of he said/she said, no matter which language is being used. I am not at all convinced that teachers can rely on other children to be faithful witnesses when a playground altercation occurs, even if the majority language is used by everyone. Therefore, banning the second language wouldn't even be an effective strategy. But IMO the larger issue is that banning the use of other languages on the playground is simply wrong.

I have 2 Lithuanian boys in my class and they actually speak English to each other in the playground and I've heard them doing the same while out in town with their families.

That's too bad. If the parents are not supportive of bilingualism, the boys may forget Lithuanian altogether. I imagine they are under the misguided impression that they are helping their children. In my own family, my grandfather never spoke his first language to his children, due to the fear that they would be labeled as "immigrant children." So that rich linguistic heritage was lost to the succeeding generations. I now have a bilingual family of my own (but our second language is not my grandfather's language, which to my regret I do not speak).

I have several Romanian children in my class. They never speak to each other in Romanian. It puzzles me a bit! Ive asked them about it and they just laughed and said "Miss, dont be silly, we speak English at school and Romanian at home". I don't know where they've got that message from - they are quite young though, Primary, lower years, might change as they get older i guess.

My DN is in a French primary school (or their equivalent of primary) and she has to speak French exclusively. My DB and DSIL didn't prepare her very well for this by the way, her only exposure before the move was courtesy of a French cartoon series featuring something that looked like the Snuffleopagus. But there's no option to tell them to 'do one'. They've been told that if they aren't happy with the rules they can withdraw her.

I think there should be a standard language, English or Welsh in Wales. We standardise communication in businesses. It's sensible, and allows people not to be left out. One of the reasons children go to school is the socialisation that takes place, and some of that is in the playground. I rely on other children to play with and speak with my child - it's a mutual thing. If I sent my child to a school where they didn't choose to speak English it would reduce her opportunities to socialise.

I wouldn't want to make it mandatory, but rather an acknowledgement that it's a polite thing to do.

An acknowledgement that it's polite to speak in a language which everyone in a group can understand, yes. But banning multilingual children from speaking their own language to one another in the company of just each other seems ridiculous.

Stop being paranoid, woman. Just because the whole world doesn't speak English it doesn't mean all non-English speakers are after you. You are not BU. You're a racist nutjob.

OK, reported myself after reading more. However, language has nothing to do with the abuse. It should be reported and dealth with but not on the expense of forbidding kids using their own language. I can assure you they won't stop just because of that, they'll just find sneakier ways.
Apologies for the first post, getting sick of everyday racism so a bit touchy.

I'm very pro speaking other languages and bilingualism, having studied languages and having lived abroad.

However. ...when I was overseas, there was an etiquette that we were to speak the common language - obviously the native one. If I switched to English with friends from there, I was ticked off and told to speak the native language as it was considered rude to effectively shut everyone out of the conversation. The only exception was when one couldn't speak the language - eg a visiting relative. In this case, one of us would translate so we could all join in.

I am not sure how this could be policed in the playground though.