Ken Livingstone and antisemitism

[Flashbangandgone]

Aibu to not understand why KL's comments that Hitler was a Zionist in the early 30s mean KL is racist? Surely he was referring to the Haavara Agreement that encouraged Jews to move to Palestine to create their own community leaving Europe 'ethnically cleansed'.

I can't see how referring to this fact of history makes someone racist and antisemitic?!?

It seems as though the Labour Party, understandably hyper-sensitive about any whiff of antisemitism, and not knowing the history of the early Nazi state, and interpreted KLs comments as pro-Hitler, which i just don't see. It all appears to be a knee jerk hysterical reaction to me and unfair on KL... Or have I missed something?

Maybe KL was wrong to brand Hitler a Zionist, but this just makes him wrong, not racist.

It might help if you understood the Haavara Agreement.

The backing of the Haavara agreement was, pragmatic. The head of the Jewish Agency's political department, Haim Arlosoroff, said they had to facilitate a way for Jews to get their property out before it was forcefully taken and sold at reduced price, and the proceeds stolen from them. Enzo Sereni, as well as other Zionists emissaries in Germany, noted the benefits of enhanced Zionist prestige in Germany and the increase in Jews leaving from Germany. Ben-Gurion, leader of the Zionists' dominant organizations, said "Zionism bears the obligations of a state; it therefore cannot initiate an irresponsible battle against Hitler as long as he remains a head of state", saying that other countries had also not severed their ties with the Germans.

Charging the jews £65000 to leave Germany wasn't a very zionist thing for Hitler to do. Those who could afford it did. Those who couldnt stayed and died.

What is anti semitic is that he thinks it is perfectly ok to cause that level of offense to Jewish people. It's not like he doesn't have form either. How do you think it feels as a British Jew to have the holocaust trivialised by a member of a mainstream political party.

What he is, however, is an auto-didact with the auto-didact's confidence in their limited reading of tertiary sources, and filtering of those to match their preconceptions.

This

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

I do feel sad about Ken. I wonder about dementia. And booze. And just being sad, at not being mayor, having your best days well behind you

Galloway however is an anti Semitic self serving prick of a man. Imo

It appears the mob rules and opinion is no longer acceptable.

Indeed... I came on here to ask whether I was being unreasonable to think something... It would be quite acceptable for people to respond 'yes, YABU for this or that reason', but no, I'm accused of being a troll, an absolute disgrace, and to shut the fuck up... This illiberalism masquarading as tolerance is just perverse.

For what it's worth I think KL was stupid to have made those comments, that his knowledge of history appears to be somewhat (though not totally) lacking (Hitler did seem to want to deal with Jews initially by making them emigrate to Palestine and form their own community there), but my point was whether that makes him racist?

But no, to some there is no nuance, no room for discussion, just ignorant insults... It's strange how the far 'liberal' left seem to meet the far right round the back on free expression.... Equally strange they don't have the self-awareness to recognise the bigotry and inconsistency of their 'fuck the fuck back down your hole' responses.

i seriously give up.Look at Luciana Berger MP twitter account and see the hate she gets.

I don't get the relevance of this. Of course any antisemetic comments she receives are despicable and appalling and should be condemned... My point is whether a partially erroneous view of history on a matter concerning a genocidal maniac makes someone a racist?

I don't get the relevance of this

KL said in the interview that he had never in all his years seen anything anti-Semetic

So what does he see as anti-Semetic?

plus you don't get to dictate what can and can't be talked about in a thread

If he has dementia, then I feel bad for all.

"But no, to some there is no nuance, no room for discussion, just ignorant insults... It's strange how the far 'liberal' left seem to meet the far right round the back on free expression.... Equally strange they don't have the self-awareness to recognise the bigotry and inconsistency of their 'fuck the fuck back down your hole' responses."

Do we really need to extend free speech and tolerance to Hitler though?

Lots of people died in WWII. Quite, quite horribly. Many of us on here will have had relatives that died either in the Holocaust, or fighting in the war.

I don't actually think that it's too much to ask that we don't wrongly try to ascribe reasonable motives to Hitler out of respect for all the millions and millions that died.

How do you think it feels as a British Jew to have the holocaust trivialised by a member of a mainstream political party?

^This

KL was being interviewed about Naz Shah's remarks and the Labour Party. Nothing whatsoever to do with WWII or the Holocaust. He somehow makes the leap from the Labour Party to Hitler. Of course that is having a go at Jewish people.

"Maybe KL was wrong to brand Hitler a Zionist, but this just makes him wrong, not racist."

That may be true, but what a mistake!! Surely it's obvious that anyone who killed 6M Jews is not a Zionist?! And Ken's not exactly new to debates on Israel and Zionism. Surely he knows the definition of one better than most of us?

So while YANBU, I think you are maybe being a little naive to support him in this.

Lots of good posts above - thank you. I now better understand the context. I don't see how he could defend Naz Shah's posts. I think I WBU....

Still think the angry 'fuck off down the hole you came from' posts are vile and have no part in any discussion. It's all too common a response from some people who are keen to promote tolerance - still don't get how they don't see the perversity of their words.

KL said in the interview that he had never in all his years seen anything anti-Semetic

Ok I now see the relevance.... Hadn't known he'd said that.

How was Hitler a Zionist? Zionism is meant to help Jews and be benevolent in finding a home for them free from persecution. Hitler wanted the opposite. He didn't want to banish them to Palestine because he cared about their welfare, quite the opposite. In my opinion, KL was trying to make out that that Hitler had a benevolent approach to the Jews or that Hitler was a secret Zionist (trying to whitewash and appropriate the mechanics of the holocaust and turn blame on Jews Zionists) for what Hitler did to them. How long before the victims of the holocaust are labelled Zionists in order to re write history?

Flashbangandgone - bearing in mind some of the bile you can get on MN, often about quite innocuous topics, I think you were lucky to just get one that told you to F off (not that that makes it right obvs)

I really didn't think that was an unreasonable question - and your response has been great, so no harm done eh?

KL was fairly transparently trying to draw parallels between Nazism and Zionism (an old favourite for him), and to bring this in to excuse Naz Shah (who had already, by that point, graciously apologised and admitted her error, and had her apology accepted, by the way, so there was nothing at all to be gained by KL saying this!) - yes, that was if not anti-Semitic, quite astonishingly offensive.

OP - I apologise for assuming you were a racist troll, as it seems you are listening to comments and taking them on board. Sadly, KL is not alone in his views or his intentions, however.

His remarks were similar to those of Netenyahu in 2015. He said that in 1941 'Hitler did not want to exterminate the Jews, he wanted to expel the Jew'.

If you believe that Ken Livingstone is anti-Semitic for making this remark, do you also believe Netenyahu is anti-Semitic for saying the same thing?

I do not support intolerance against any racial or religious group. But I find it troubling if there are certain things you are not permitted to discuss at all without being accused of anti-Semitism, unless you are Jewish.

Ken Livingstone has lost his job over this.

George Coburn, UKIP MEP, said that he referred to Hamza Yousaf MSP as 'Abu Hamza'. Comparing an Asian MSP to a convicted terrorist is racist. Yet Coburn still has his job, the whip, and hasn't ever apologised as he insisted it was a joke.

This tells me the outrage over Ken's (and Naz's) remarks is purely politically motivated. If it wasn't, he would have been treated the way that George Coburn has been and allowed to apologise, or his remarks would have been understood in context, like Netenyahu's.

"it trivialises the suffering experienced largely only by Jewish people"

Rubbish, 40 million Europeans died in that war.

I was under the impression that in the years prior to the early 1930s, Zionism was quite a niche perspective among European Jewry.

I definitely got the impression from Stefan Zweig's memoirs that his very middle-class, very established Jewish community in Vienna saw Zionism as almost quite bizarre and eccentric idea in the 1910s and 1920s, and they perceived its proponents as slightly odd -- i.e. in the sense that they were not the kind of people that polite Austrian Jewish society would ask to dinner. I think Zweig worked with Herzl [?] at some point and a lot of this impression comes from those passages.

So to argue that Hitler was a "Zionist" in the early 30s is a bit like saying that the Reconquista was an "Islamist" project to force the establishment of the perfect Caliphate in the Middle East.

It's seriously distorted thinking. And when you get this level of distorted thinking, you have to question the processes behind that thinking.

As an aside, Ken Livingstone is a really quite horrible piece of work. I used to know a lot of people in the Labour party, from executive level down to grassroots, who refused to have anything to do with him and wouldn't be in the same room as him.

Hitler was not a Zionist and Livingstone knows that perfectly well. He is not mistaken about history he is deliberately distorting it in a highly provocative way.

Netanyahu commenting on Hitler changing his approach from expelling Jews to exterminating Jews is a million miles away from calling Hitler a Zionist. If Livingstone had stuck to that he might have kept his job.

I find it troubling if there are certain things you are not permitted to discuss at all without being accused of anti-Semitism, unless you are Jewish.

Ken Livingstone has lost his job over this.

George Coburn, UKIP MEP, said that he referred to Hamza Yousaf MSP as 'Abu Hamza'. Comparing an Asian MSP to a convicted terrorist is racist. Yet Coburn still has his job, the whip, and hasn't ever apologised as he insisted it was a joke.

This tells me the outrage over Ken's (and Naz's) remarks is purely politically motivated. If it wasn't, he would have been treated the way that George Coburn has been and allowed to apologise

Oh come on! Nice bit of selecting to leave out inconvenient yet important fact going on there.. Coburn is a UKIP MEP. Are you seriously suggesting that the Labour party which likes to tout it's pure anti-racist, anti-facist credentials should take it's lead on dealing with racism from UKIP? Leaving aside the fact that exactly the sort of 'liberals' who demanded Coburns resignations are the ones making excuses for KL now.

As I said, this is the liberal left moving the goalposts. They have spent at least 20 years policing language, leading witch hunts and making political capital out of perceived predjudice. Yet when one of their own does the same, suddenly we should all be taking the lead from UKIP on dealing with predjudice.

And the Islamic lobby have proved to be far, far more effective at shutting down any debate on Islam (non just from non-Muslims, but also from Muslims) than the Jewish lobby has ever been.

BillSykesDog - agree 100% APART from the bit about this being about the "liberal left moving goalposts" - surely this god-awful anti-semitic streak is clearly attributable to the loony left?!