to be unhappy with school's decision?

[OiHeadNooooo]

I have name changed because of the details in the post.

Dc2 is currently in Yr2. School are telling us that in September, when the year group are Yr3 & become KS2 pupils, they are going to divide them and keep roughly half in a shared class with Yr2, in the same classroom they are in now, whilst the others will move to the next class & share with Yr4.

We, along with most other Yr2 parents, are not happy about this as the year group will be split over the 2 key stages. This is bound to mean there will be differences in how they are treated and the level of work they will be exposed to. One major difference, that I think will mean a lot to the kids themselves, is that those with the Yr2s (as they are still in a KS1 classroom) will get an afternoon playtime, whereas the ones with the Yr4s (in a KS2 class) will not. This seems a very unfair way of treating children who are in the same year group. Particularly as friendship groups will no doubt be split & some kids will have to watch their friends go out to play when they cannot. Additionally, when KS2 or Yr3 group activities are planned the pupils in the younger class will have to leave their classroom to join in but then go back when finished. After Yr3, the year group would then come together again in Yr4, be split again in Yr5 (but possibly with different pupils in the 2 groups) & then be together again in Yr6. Essentially creating a complete lack of continuity for the rest of their time at primary school and having a differing effect on them educationally & socially.

There was a meeting for Yr2 parents where the Head gave a presentation about how this cohort split would work and it seemed to be to gauge opinion but, since the majority weren’t happy with the idea and the decision has been made to go ahead with it anyway, it would appear to have been presented as a fait accompli. It would also appear that financial considerations are more important than what is best for the children, as there are potential alternative solutions to the issue (which is an imbalance in class sizes) that could prevent splitting the year group but they would mostly create the need for an extra teacher &/or classroom space.

How would you feel if this was going to affect your dc? What would you do in response to being told about this decision?

I ask because we have a parents’ evening tonight where we will be speaking to the Head (as they are one of dc2’s teachers). Some parents had their meetings yesterday and have told me that they were informed that the decision (which was originally couched as an option albeit without any other options put forward) will be going ahead – so, never mind what the parents’ opinions are then! From what others have said, in the meeting tonight, the Head will be asking us where we would want our dc to be placed whilst telling us which class they will be placing them in and why that will be best for them.

These composite classes happen in Scottish primarys. They are awful for children. They will try to see you this as the younger children get pushed on my the older children. Think about it: it is the best children from the younger class with the worst children from the older class. The younger ones often feel intimidated by the older ( and rougher) ones. It is impossible to teach two levels properly at the same time so often some groups are given work and left to get on with it and whole class work is diluted so it is accessible for everyone. The older ones cannot get pushed as much as they need to and will not progress as much as they might if they were still in a class with their higher achieving peers.

Our (small) school has split year groups and honestly, it is the parents that got angsty over it, not the kids. My two stayed in the younger class when half the class went up but still did lots of joint activities and lessons together. Eldest good academically and one of the older ones but stayed as he really benefitted from being one of the eldest in class. Youngest is bright but has his head in the clouds and benefited from more relaxed classroom. They still play as a year group though and would be a shame to have different play times.

How would you feel if this was going to affect your dc? What would you do in response to being told about this decision?

I did affect DC1, his group was divided in same way (8 yrs ago?!). A lot of parents grumbled; it made sod all difference to anybody in the end, near as I could tell. The school has done the same division many times in years since and mixed other year groups often... just not important. Big school in small town, btw.

"Think about it: it is the best children from the younger class with the worst children from the older class. "

Read the OP's situation - it is ALL of Y2 plus a few Y3, and ALL of Y4 + the rest of Y3. Not a 'low Y2/high Y1 split, for example.

Our school (v small, rural) often does this. The benefits of small class sizes (always less than 20 pupils) outweigh the disadvantages in my opinion. The only time it's been a problem was when my daughter was put with children who were more socially mature than her, which made her very unhappy- much easier for a teacher to differentiate school work than socialising! Why not wait and see what happens instead of stressing, teachers do this kind of thing all the time because they understand it.

TheTrouble, I hadn't picked up on that. In my current single age class I differentiate at least 3 ways, and in one I taught in the past I differentiated 5 ways as a matter of routine. It's what teachers do. It can be a little more tricky in a mixed age class - because from e.g. the lowest ability Y2 to the highest ability Y3 can be a very wide range - but it is an extension of normal practice, not something 'different'

We had this with DD2 and it was a disaster (sorry, not very reassuring). They had only 9 children in Y4 and put 4 in the Y5/6 class and 5 in the Y2/3 class. DD's best friend was kept in the younger class and DD was put in the older class. She's an August birthday, was tiny and socially immature and could not cope.

To be fair to her teacher, she did her best. But it was the little issues that clinched her unhappiness. The infant play was at a different time (and like your situation, the ones in the lower class kept their play whilst DD lost it) so she only saw her best friend at lunch, and gradually the friend made other friends and drifted away from DD, leaving her very isolated. There was a class assembly for parents and when DD came in parents openly laughed (in an "oh isn't she tiny and cute" way, but it still upset DD). The teacher was deputy head so the class had a relatively regular supply who used to forget that DD was only just 8 in a class of 11 year olds and keep her in at play for not completing work in time. The children in her class were chatting about boys and make up, hitting puberty whilst she was still playing with my little pony. She became utterly miserable.

We tried to persuade the school to move her down but they said they couldn't because it would make the infant class numbers too high and would be too difficult for the Y2/3 teacher to differentiate work for her as academically she was very ahead, despite her emotional immaturity.

In the end we removed her to home educate for a year. She ended up staying at home until this year when she's just gone into 6th form. That ended up being a good choice for her but that's by the by; it's not one we should have had to make.

I'd look at some of the issues I've outlined and raise them with the school. Find out how they will deal with these kinds of problems before they happen.

As an aside, DD1 was in a Y1/2 class at infant school with no issues at all but that was a completely different set up with 3 parallel classes organised for it, not a few lone children split into classes where everyone else was much older or younger.

And yes, in DD's case they were divided by ability, which from experience I don't think was the best way at all. A teacher can differentiate academic work but it's much harder to compensate for differences in emotional maturity or for being put in a different class to your lifelong best friend.

I personally don't like mixed year classes and like you I would be livid. I choose my kids large primary school because it's outstanding ofsted and has separate classes for each year, but it is very large there are three classes of thirty in each year. They are then divided into smaller groups according to ability from all classes in the year for literacy and numeracy.

eklla, the OP's school already has mixed age classes.

The only change is the nature of the mix - a Y2/Y3 and a Y3/Y4 rather than a Y3/Y4.

Our school does this. I've had two children in the half with the older class - worked really well and pushed them on academically. And one child 'left behind'. It really knocked her confidence and she still doesn't think she's clever now in year 11

It is a numbers game and they have to do what is in the best interests of all the children.Splitting a year group like this never sits well with the parents (especially parents the ones left behind with the younger year group)
My experience contradicts parisont's . It can be a very positive confidence-building experience of the ones left in the younger age group as they can shine in the new class

They should not be splitting across the Key Stages 1 and 2.

Years 3 and 4 are often combined (they are in ours), and Years 5 and 6.

But not, years 2 and 3 ... the differences and expectations are too big.

It happens nearly every year at our school ewe .In fact it happens twice.
Class 1 Nursery,R, Y1
Class 2 - Y2,3,4
Class 3 Y5 and 6

Ewe, have you read the posts about numbers?

They COULD not split across years 2 and 3 BUT that either leaves a Y3/4 class of 32 OR a class which contains some of Y4, then all of Y5 and Y6.

It's one of those 'least worst' things.

Oh dear, I wish I could be positive about this situation. I had a similar thing when I moved and my kids were sent to a needs improvement out of catchment school. My kids, twins, were in year 2 and the school had 3 classes that were solely year2 and then one that was mixed high achieving year1 and year2 together. I didn't want my son who has dyslexia to be put in the mixed class, as 1, he was already behind and 2, he is very young for his age and I knew he would gravitate towards year1 children probably making his behaviour even younger for his age. Of course he was put in the mixed class and I was given no choice. It was a complete waste of a year, mostly seemed to be doing advanced year1 work despite them promising it would be year 2 work.His sister, who is very academic was put in the class that was solely year2. In my opinion, it just makes the ones who are behind further behind and the brighter ones further ahead. I suspect this is what your school have in mind and in my opinion it doesn't work. My children have now been removed from that school. Maybe, if the majority of parents are in agreement then you could get a petition up, send it to the school and the school Governors. If that didn't work you could try ofsted. Good luck x

happybee, I say again - and this is frustrating:

The school has 4 classes, and 83 pupils.

• The classes can either be mixed 20 / 21 per class, with the only change from this year being that a few Y3 stay with Y2 OR

• The school can have 31 in a mixed Y3/4 class, with 12 in the y2 class and 20 in the R/Y1 class or 16 each a mixed R/Y1 and Y1/Y2 class OR

• The school can have one of the above KS1 arrangements but a Y3/4 class and a Y4/5/6 class, in which the problem simply transfers up to Y4.

Th head has chosen the first option as being the least worst.

You can't just say 'this isn't good'.

You have to say which of the other ways the school has of splitting its classes is better - and brace yourself for the worsening economic situation in schools, where this school will probably have to go back down to 3 classes.

We have a very small school and most of the classes are composite. I was never a fan and worried about how the kids could be taught at different levels. My mother in law has been a teacher for 40+ years and pointed out that every class, even straight primary classes, are composite within themselves. Every child is different and, as she pointed out, a teacher will work them to their ability, ie reading groups etc. This makes perfect sense? All our kids work differently and at their own learning level. Made me feel better about the kids being split.

The school will not have made this decision lightly and would never, in a perfect world, split a year group or teach mixed key stage classes.
There is no way that your child's school will have the funding to provide an extra teacher and/or classroom to keep the class together if it means the class will be smaller than about 25.
I can understand your concerns, but really, parental opinion isn't going to magic an extra £30,000+ into the budget is it?
It sounds like it has been presented as a fait accompli because there is no other choice. The questions you need to be asking are around how the situation will be made to work as smoothly as possible. For example, if the school policy is for ks1 to have an afternoon play, the ks2 children shouldn't be joining them unless all of year 3 have a playtime. There should be opportunities built in for year 3 to work together as a year group, and you need reassurances that the work will still meet all of their needs.
Whilst it's not an ideal situation, I have seen it work well.

I've just read other posts above - you are very lucky that the school is holding on to 4 classes with 83 pupils. When we dropped to 90 we had to go to 3 classes.

I think the split with approx 21 in each class is best, not ideal but best overall , we are in Scotland and the limit is for 30 in single year but 25 if a composite class at present DD is in P2(y1) which is a p2/3 there were 91 pupils split
P1/2, P2/3, P4/5 and P6/7 ' next year will be over 100 so should
D get extra teacher, they try never to split P1 and a minimum of 4 from a year group and never just 1 of a particular sex,
Her year group is is 12 7 boys and 5 girls , 3 boys and 2 girls are in with p1 and the rest including D are with P3 it works fine

Our classes were split like this, on age only. I and 7 others spent two years in class 3 (so we were what is now year 3, rest of class year 2). We didn't meet up with the rest of my year for a couple of years.

I know my mum was annoyed at the time, I was the most academically able in my year but I thought it was great.

I had composite classes all through school. It made no difference to the education, we all got a good education.

In my daughter's year group, they are split over two and a half classes as there are so many of them. They mixed and matched them this year and it all seems to be doing fine. Generally, the school will know what they are doing. I was actually annoyed my daughter wasn't in the composite class, as the class sizes are smaller and as she has a disability, a smaller group would have suited her better. But, she's doing fine so it turned out ok.

I get that there is a concern about levels of attainment and stuff, but to be honest, this can vary so widely even among one year group so teachers have to be adept at teaching to the appropriate levels for all the children in the class. I think parents can get a little too worked up about these things. Surely it's better to see how your child gets on in the class and only raise it as an issue if they are struggling.