to not understand the level of fuss about the Stoke Gifford Parkrun?

[Lucydogz]

I appreciate that, ideally, Parkruns should be free, but can't understand the level of fuss about Stoke Gifford proposing a £1 charge for this. I pay more than that to park my car when I do a parkrun in my town. Football clubs pay to use parks, as do other organisations, and parks really need the money. Well over 100 runners go on 'my' run, and it does increase wear and tear on the ground.

I remember Wandsworth proposed charging an entrance fee to their playgrounds a while ago. I hope this idea goes the same way and the publicity for parkrun gets more people signing up for its runs.

I would be very surprised if the wear and tear from parkruns makes a jot of difference to the maintenance costs. People seem very focused on the nukbers running but how many is it as a proportion of total weekly users? Dog walkers often go every day to the park. Are they going to charge then for supposed wear and tear too?

I think talking bullshit and it's more likely they see them as a target to get some cash or they're pissed off with them for other reasons.

My main issue with this is; where does it stop?

Ok, so they charge for 300 runners. Does that mean they could charge for 100 runners? 50? A group of 10 friends? A group of 5? Even a regular pair of friends running the same route every day?

Council tax has to cover a lot of things, and has always only covered a fraction of the cost of the things provided by local government. The grants from central government have always been crutial for supporting local amenities and services - and these grants have been drastically cut. Have you asked how much of your local council tax goes on park maintenance per person? Find out and compare it with the pre 2012 figure.

Austerity means there is less money to spend. Unfortunately the costs of maintaining things hasn't magically shrunk to accommodate this.

Ok, so they charge for 300 runners. Does that mean they could charge for 100 runners? 50? A group of 10 friends? A group of 5?

If they are an organisation, then yes, a small number could be charged. If they are private individuals, then no.

If a running organisation can use the park for free on a regular basis, the council would also have to stop charging all other organisations for their events.

Why should groups have to pay to use the park for every community theatre/arts/music event, for football club training and matches, for an Easter egg hunt or nature trail, for a town barbecue or community picnic, for a fireworks display, a fun day, an outdoor aerobics class etc. but a running organisation claims they alone should be exempt?

These various other activities also encourage a community spirit, exercise, fresh air, good health, a reason to get out and about etc. Running does not trump all other park events.

Our parkrun is on Forestry Commission land. Runners are excused the parking fees before 10 am iirc - would normally be £4.

The Commission absolutely rakes it in, though, because a good 50% of the runners fall in to the café at the end of their run for a celebratory bacon sandwich and coffee!

The parish council could offset the extra wear and tear costs by selling a coffee/bacon sandwich van pitch in the car park. It won't be only parkrun runners causing wear and tear; it wouldn't be only runners buying hot brown.

Come to think of it, our junior parkrun is on council land, and there's free parking there on race days (until 9.30 - they only run 2k so that's enough for even the smallest to toddle round).

fakenamefornow - I remember Wandsworth proposed charging an entrance fee to their playgrounds a while ago. I hope this idea goes the same way and the publicity for parkrun gets more people signing up for its runs.

You're right, Wandsworth did back down from charging for entry to its adventure playgrounds but a few months later, and despite massive local protest, demolished them all, replacing the biggest, at Battersea Park, with a useless, castrated version of an adventure playground in which my 5yo and 7yo lasted about half an hour before saying it was boring and the equipment was lame. Wandsworth have now leased part of the park - part of the old adventure playground site or very close to it if not actually on it - to Go Ape where the lowest price I could see on its website is £18 per child. and

Oh, and Wandsworth also charges local schools to use its commons for class runarounds having sold off and privatised as many playing fields as possible. It's marvellous having the lowest council tax in the country .

I've not read the full thread but I am a keen parkrunner and go most weeks (not to Little Stoke). The ethos of parkrun is that it is free for all. Very few people earn money out of parkrun other than a few staff. Equipment is paid for by sponsorship.

So if a charge is going to be levied, parkrun does not have cash to pay. There is no money. It's that simple. It is not like a football club which levies subs, so it has some income from which it can eg pay for pitch hire. Many councils charge businesses - eg if you are a personal trainer. I'm not sure I even agree with that as everyone pays council tax.

The people who "staff" the events are all volunteers and cannot be asked to collect money. If the council paid someone to collect the money it would defeat the object of collecting it. And if people just turn up and run in the park, they can't charge them because anyone can run in a park. So really it's not enforceable. However, the terms of parkrun's insurance dictate that consent for the event is given. If the council withdraws consent, that means no insurance so no event.

The council concerned had other options. It could have charged for parking (many venues do, this is not an issue as you can car share, get the bus, run, cycle etc if you don't want to pay to park). However, its "parent" council South Gloucester has a policy of no charging. Maybe they should have been more flexible about that.

The council also said that people from outside the area use parkrun. Yes and people from Bristol do parkruns elsewhere. Councils often say things like this - eg you can't use our library or rubbish tip because you live over the border - very silly and there should be an assumption of reciprocity rather than erecting barriers. There is no parkrun in my district but plenty within a 30 minute radius. But if all councils took this view I wouldn't be able to take part in one.

The council also had developer funding from local new housing developments but chose to use it for football faciliites. And it has healthy cash reserves.

It wasn't to do with money.

My guess is that there are simply too many runners now (it used be 60, now there are around 300) and someone somewhere had their nose put out of joint (eg dog walker who's married to a councillor and didn't like sharing the park with runners at 9am, even though for the rest of the day they wouldn't have to). Read the minutes of the meetings and you'll see a few residents' comments to the effect that the park is not just for runners. Parkrun is at 9am for up to an hour. That's all. Junior parkrun is shorter and takes place on Sunday morning. But if they simply wanted parkrun gone it's a pity they didn't just say that. I suspect "we can't cope with 300 runners, you've got too big for the park and we need you to find a different venue" would have caused a lot less adverse publicity than "pay us to use the park".

The council guy on the news the other morning said he didn't want to charge the runners. He said he wanted the run to be free on the day for all those that turn up.

He said that the organisation Park Run could apply for a grant, as a club, to cover costs to the council specifically incurred by this weekly event. He said he had the application forms ready for submssion and all the club had to do was sign them. But they wont.

PS most organised activities in a park confer some sort of exclusivity - eg if you are using a football pitch people can't walk their dogs across it and kids can't play on it. Parkrunners are told to give way to other park users (I'm not saying everyone does especially at the faster end of proceedings, but that is the rule).

Itinerary, my council doesn't charge for most of those things, apart from football because there are specific costs with maintaining the pitches and providing facilities that wouldn't be needed otherwise.

I'm involved in an event in a park which involves stages, pa equipment etc, and attracts about 2000 people. We don't get charged but the council don't incur any costs that they wouldn't have anyway. And they like the fact that the park is being used.

The grant thing is a bit weird. I can only think they don't want to do it because they don't want to set a precedent for everyone having to apply for grants and being thrown off the park if they don't because they don't have the staff to do it. But the grant application was to South Glos. So maybe South Glos could have found a way to provide the money. Basically where there's a will there's a way and there doesn't seem to have been the necessary will.

I don't know if the junior parkrun is being kicked off as well. My guess is that's a smaller event and it's only 2k not 5k so hopefully not.

300 runners once a week is the equivalent of 45 dog walkers going once a day. If you count the dog as something that creates wear and tear, then thats less than 25 dog walkers a week.

YABU.

Even a Tory government minister disagrees with this. We are enough of an unhealthy nation- let's keep the few free exercise opportunities.

It's probably the fact that they all go over the space of an hour, whereas your 45 dog walkers a day are spread out over the remaining let's call it 16 hours. If those 300 people did a run spread out over the mornings, evenings and weekends I bet nobody would notice.

I'm sporty, I occasionally go for a run but I'm not sure I understand parkrun as a thing. I mean, you can just run. I can leave my front door having plotted a 1/2/5/10 mile route, run it and be done. I can drive to my local lake and jog round it if that suits better. It's not an activity that needs to be organised really.

Our parkrun attracts 350+ a week. On one of my slower runs with the dc's I did ponder how there was no damage to the grass even after several hundred people had ran across it twice within 45 mins. I also run in that park on non parkrun days and you wouldn't know it had ever happened. It's such a brief moment in the week of the park that the park can cope.

The council quite clearly said it was because it was " organised" . The one interviewed on the BBC this morning said that any number of people could run for free just not as part of an organisation. So not really a problem as everyone who normally does it could turn up and run round surely.
In my experience people who like these organised events absolutely love paying for stuff too. Parking, certificates, T shirts, using the cafe...

lampygirl - I don't understand Parkrun either. Posters are saying that we need to keep exercise opportunities but you can run without Parkrun, you don't need anything organised.
Just run when and where it suits you.

Of course you can run without Parkrun, but some people find it fun, inspirational, like to be in a crowd, wouldn't go if alone and raining on 9am on a Sunday.

Others prefer to go alone to their own timetable.

Why is it an either/or situation?

YABU. Yes to what HPsauciness said! Initiatives like this should be encouraged, not penalized, there are so many benefits to the local community.

Oh, cross posted with you HP, totally agreed with your thoughts on the community aspects earlier.

YABU.

For all the reasons said.