To increasingly feel like a bit of a mug

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

DH and I are working class made good, first in our families to Uni, blardy blar.

We have a business that makes a lot of money. We have never lied on our tax returns, personal or business, never done anything dodgy off the books, never even fiddled our returns to get Uni funding for the kids (and I know loads of self employed people who have done that). We pay a lot of tax.

But all around us politicians, celebrities and sportspeople are shoving their money through every tax loophole they can find. No one seems to think they have any responsibility to help pay for health or education or welfare or anything.

To be honest I'm starting to feel quite stupid for not joining them.

If only more people were decent and honest.

There'd be no need for NHS cuts and all these wage freezes.

I feel the same! As well as working part time as a teacher I let out a house and have always been completely honest on my yearly tax return. I feel like an idiot now... and rather angry!

So do I and I can't quite get over the idea that they are having a quiet laugh at us.

Snap , I agree

You are so right. The establishment win always, we live in a corrupt society, where certain echelons literally get away with murder whilst the so called little people keep the wheels turning. It's sickening.

It is a bit of a joke isnt it? Do yoy think they giggle and snigger about us idiots doing it all by the book while they continue to shaft us?

We were talking about Cameron's father here last night. What cracks me up is the man was most likely conservative, anti-handout, believed in taking care of yourself etc and in reality he was a freeloader who didn't pay tax so sponged off the rest of society who were working to provide the infrastructure he used.

I would love to know what money the Panama account holders give to charity every year.

Wonder if Cameron's mum knew what hubby did with the money?

Makes her complaints about the cuts in her local area stink of hypocrisy if she did.

I don't think it's "stupid" to pay your fair taxes and not avoid them – it's responsible and decent. JK Rowling pays her taxes - I don't think of her as stupid, she just has a sense of graciousness about having plenty of money and thinks she should pay.

Also, while tax avoidance is a bad thing and decent people don't do it, I don't think it's much of a surprise that entitled, super-rich people who can afford hotshot accountants and lawyers to sort it for them, do this kind of thing when it's legal because there are so many loopholes. There shouldn't be - they shouldn't be able to get away with it.

You're not stupid or a mug, as others have said you are socially responsible and decent. These super-rich tax avoiders may well laugh at people who don't do as they do, but I would rather that than join them at it.

there is a difference between tax evasion (a crime) and tax avoidance, which is legal use of loopholes. Keeping your savings in ISAs avoids tax - are we saying that 'decent people' don't do that?

the governments of the last 15 years or more should have closed the loopholes.

I would love to know what money the Panama account holders give to charity every year.

A cynic might suggest that unless it's tax-deductible, then answer is "fuck all".

I'm a cynic, btw.

For balance, there are people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet who are effectively giving all their wealth to charity.

I don't think it's as clear cut as evasion versus avoidance Special. As Rhombus has said, JK Rowling could stuff masses of money through loopholes but chooses not to.

It's not about what is legal, it is about what is moral. The two are not the same.

It's sickening isn't it.
I'm in the same position as you, me and DH have a business. Last night I transferred over 11k to the VAT man
Not that I mind paying it, it comes with the territory of being self employed, but I do mind when I read the recent headlines.

I've been studying accountancy for the last few years. The more i learn, the more i realise we have a system set up by rich people for rich people. The more money you have, the greater the opportunity to hide/offset/avoid. Those of us with less money are taxed at source with PAYE, NI, council tax, VAT. You can't really avoid it.

It is a piss take. Though not a surprising one. People have been asking for absolutely ages why tax loopholes aren't being closed despite it being very clear that large businesses were effectively screwing the country over. Quite a logical explanation that it wasn't only these businesses benefiting.

Lots of legitimate ways to avoid tax if you want to

we all get a personal tax allowance which allows us to 'avoid' tax on the first £11,000 of our income.

feel free to donate 20% of that to charity.

I agree that there are obvious ways to increase this country's income and solve most of our problems by changing the taxation on big business. But while we slobber at the feet of the money-movers as opposed to encouraging production of things, it will never happen.

rescue a bank? Instantly. Rescue a steel company?

Define 'legitimate' Organon.

There's a big difference in using things like personal income tax allowances, ISAs, childcare vouchers that everyone can do openly without clever accounting compared with all these offshore trusts, dividends for directors, pretend loans and charity schemes, where the charity is a 'horse sanctuary' where the patrons are the wife and daughter of a high earning businessman etc IMHO.

Tax allowances applies to all and is not a loophole or tax avoidance. The loopholes are exploited by those who have higher incomes. The taxes then fall on the middling income earners which is why there is so much discussion over benefits as it is that group who foot the bill

Get a better accountant OP to maximise your avoidance whilst being careful not to step into evasion.

I resented every penny of tax I paid in the UK, I always paid but still resented it. Hence I left the UK and setup my business in a country with a more pleasing set of tax laws.

Some people on this thread are just not getting it. We have a perfectly good accountant. We have no problem with paying our taxes. Society runs on taxes. The issue is the problem that other people have with paying their taxes.

I disagree that there is anything wrong with tax avoidance. There should be only one standard for the amount of taxes you should pay, and that's the letter of the law. Tax avoiders comply with that.

The issue is the problem that other people have with paying their taxes.

But, by definition, tax avoiders do pay every penny of their taxes. If the didn't they'd be called tax evaders.

The tax system is not fit for purpose IMO. It should be scrapped and simplified. There are tomes and tomes of tax laws that nobody properly understands. Start again from scratch.

You get the Conservatives bleat 'oh but the best business brains, the 'cream' will fuck off to other countries with lenient tax laws'. Well fuck off then. Maybe small businesses will flourish more, maybe there will be less inequality. Maybe houses will be more affordable. Fact is the present system isn't working for the majority of people and the hugely wealthy are royally taking the piss.