To think its a no brainer to renationalise British Steel

[feellikeahugefailure]

We need steel, it's just being killed by cheap dumping. Would be foolish to let it go under and not produce any steel in the country.

Also the mistakes with remploy show that it will probably cost more in benefits if the business close. Not to mention more long term affects on mental health from people that can't ever get back into work.

Would decimate the local area, not just the workers but the knock on affect of the workers not spending their money in the local area. One pound earnt could be spent 10 times.

Until the world changes everyone has to play the game of 'free market', even more so now that we are so interlinked.

I'm not totally sold on Corbyn people QE but can see a reason for a citizens income especially going forwards but only if it's handled correctly and doesn't introduce rampant inflation.

BTW 'scrappage' was a nulabour initiative - just saying

So was the bank bailout mollie, didn't say I didn't agree with it, I said I didn't agree with the idea being put forward that we should "let the market decide."

"everyone has to play the game of 'free market', even more so now that we are so interlinked. "

They don't though do they? The excuse of "let the market decide" is used when its politically expedient for politicians to play the free market card, with the banks, automotive industry, agriculture etc it isn't so they don't. As previously pointed out as well other governments intervene to protect their own. Our government will not do so right now to keep the Chinese happy, sod the workers in Wales and everywhere else, sod the future.

I would say we can't compete because of wage costs.
In China people won't be being paid a minimum of £7.60 ph. And we need to pay people that because our cost of living is so high (mainly due to housing costs).
And I am sure our rules on environmental impact and health and safety are stricter which will further add to the cost.
Even if we Nationalise we still won't be able to compete with third world countries.
Having said that I'm sure EU procurement regulations also don't help.
Things like this should never be allowed to happen
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/299742/SNP-snub-to-Scottish-steel-jobs

Other European countries also make sure that deals go to domestic firms for production, they don't wave EU rules or "competitive markets" around as an excuse for leaving their own industries destitute.

In fast buck Britain we go for the cheapest deal, despite the fact that it will cost more overall ( both in direct and indirect terms) in the long run.

On wages, Port Talbot is very expensive because it has a defined benefit pension scheme which allows workers to retire on full pension (around 60% of salary) at 55, with a starting salary at around £30k.
lurked not sure where the evidence is that it costs more in the long-run. Protectionism has shown repeatedly to be more expensive to a country.

Hmmm, protectionism seems to be fine for some industries and not others though doesn't it. If free markets operated we'd be far better off buying food and clothing from Chinese and African providers but we have protectionist measures to protect our agriculture industry, and many more.

It would cost more long run when you consider the jobs lost and the subsequent multiplier effect of those jobs going with the long term impact of structural unemployment and subsequent social costs.

The EU enforces protectionism in agriculture - New Zealand, the only rich country in the world without agricultural subsidies has seen this sector massively improve since subsidies were withdrawn - proves my point. Vote Bexit and campaign for no agricultural subsidies.
No evidence it costs more - look at protectionist measures in the 1930's, the fact EU food prices are 15% higher than world prices and this article about how removing subsidies actually increased New Zealand agriculture with very little short-term fallout and significant long-term benefit.

Thats a good example I agree, but NZ competitors are not being subsidised enough to sell below cost and are benefiting from an artificially low exchange rate.

You can cry free markets all you like, but we need to protect our industries against others who are themselves protected. What happens in 10 years when demand for steel rises again and we don't produce enough here? Costs rise, British industry will again not be as competitive as it should be.

lurked If worldwide steel prices rise, British companies buying steel will be just as competitive as any others, and ahead of, say, the USA, which is paying more due to import duties.
Its not about 'selling below cost' in the longer run, if it was, the plant would not have been loss making for 2 years. We make less than 1% of the world's steel, so are irrelevant in world terms. The world produces about twice as much steel per year today as it did 13 years ago, China growth rates have stalled and there is excess capacity, China have announced 1.8 million redundancies in steel companies, our issues are tine and irrelevant.

China is going to start charging 45% import tariff on EU steel www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/01/chinese-imposes-tariff-on-eu-steel-imports-tata
and US is imposing a 266% tariff on some Chinese steel, so I really don't see the problem with us doing the same to save our Steel industry.
www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-imposes-266-duty-on-some-chinese-steel-imports-1456878180

As others have said nationalising the steel industry wouldn't cost much more than leaving many people unemployed and an area devastated. There are parts of the country where these big industries, such as coal, have closed which are still in a very poor state.
I think we should be more cautious about allowing foreign firms to buy British ones. It's in Tata's interest to close Port Talbot; they won't be giving up the steel industry altogether just lessening the competition.

Squinkies China are putting import duty on a very specific type of steel that it buys very little of at present. It is a steel we are only 1 of 6 manufacturers in the world, it makes a profit and that plant will not be closed. It is a warning that if we put import duty on what China is good at, they will retaliate. And that will cost a lot more than £1m a day.
In reality, most of the Tata Steel business is profitable, only about half the Port Talbot workers will go - even if 5,000 workers lose jobs, £1m a day is £200 a day for each worker.
Tata have invested £8bn in UK steel industry in the past 10 years, and maintained the workers defined benefit pension scheme despite the cost - this is not a group that asset strips.

I still think the steel industry is of massive importance and that we should be producing domestically at a certain level. Nationalisation at least in part will guarentee jobs and provide some extra business optimism for potential investors.

Just who is going to buy the "profitable half" Carol? Tata were about the last big steel business going. Oh and of course one of the thing that will put off potential investors is the fact that the pound remains higher that its real value which is one of the things destroying our BOP.

The real deficit that we need to focus on is in BOP not in fiscal deficit, the decisions of this government are purely ideological and made for stated beleif in trickle down economics (that we know does not work). The wealthiest in the country are being massively subsidised by tax breaks and its about time we stopped that, and did something that has a long term economic importance and helps normal people.

Lurked Can you provide any evidence the steel industry is 'of massive importance' .
There are many large steel business going - Thyssenkrupp was looking to buy the business but put off by the pension scheme and Port Talbot. The answer is to close the defined benefit pension scheme and hive into the government's pension bailout scheme, close the unprofitable half of Port Talbot and sell the rest.
BOP and currency issues are linked - if people were worried about the BOP, sterling would fall.
General changes in the economy has nothing to do with the steel business.

Well it stands to reason that we should have domestically produced steel, lets we be beholden to the wants of foreign governments who ALL own shares in their steel production. Imagine going to get the steel for say a new set of Navy destroyers in 20 years and being told no by the Chinese?

The defined benefit scheme will have been paid into as well, it isn't a free benefit.

People are worried about BOP, largest it has been since records began, it makes sense that when we have an opportunity to protect a small part of it we do. We should be investing in steel not selling it off.

"General changes in the economy has nothing to do with the steel business"

Yes cause of course exchange rates being high doesn't put off anyone from our exports does it?

I don't mind selling off the profitable half of Port Talbot, even putting the pension scheme on the Government, I just don't think there will be a buyer and it will be like so many other bits of British industry, the government will wring its hands and say there is nothing to be done and then we will have all the problems of unemployment and no way to bring back the industry when we need it in years to come.

Well it stands to reason that we should have domestically produced steel, lets we be beholden to the wants of foreign governments who ALL own shares in their steel production. Imagine going to get the steel for say a new set of Navy destroyers in 20 years and being told no by the Chinese?

Then we could set our own steel production up pretty quickly and easily for far less money than the billions we'd pay out to support a loss making business for 20 years.

I'll say it again. We didn't have this sort of steel production if you go back 10-15 years. The Chinese started demanding it and we set up the infrastructure to make it because it's cheap and relatively simple. We've reset up production for this type of steel once already. It's not a case where if we close things now, that's it, they're gone. Not at all.

Lots of other countries other than China make steel. China is also the largest producer of iron ore, one of the main raw materials for steel - the UK produces none. If people want to prevent us having steel, a UK production plant will make no difference.
Why do you think no-one will buy it - TK want it (except for Port Talbot). Liberty House is already buying some of their sites in Scotland.
The vast majority of the pension benefit will be funded by the company because the majority of the members were employed many years ago and life expectancy was much lower - all the increased life expectancy is funded by the company. last year employers contributions to the scheme were three times the employee ones.

I think no one will buy it from experience of other industries, there will be no government action at the minute because it appeases the Chinese (lets be honest about why DC vetoed the tarrif at the EU), there will be hand wringing, some companies will be possibly interested but require some government action and then.. it will die on the vine like so many other British firms left to rot by governments of all hues.

Then in 10 years time another governent will decry the lack of British manufacturing and heavy industry just like GO did in his "March of the makers" omnishambles budget of 2012.

A period of nationalisation with clear investment and restructuring would be what is needed with a possible sell on in the future

Even if you were right, do you think the unions would allow the govt to restructure to reduce costs? They will another buyer because there will not be the money

Okay. I'm not up on politics or economics, but I am in the position to see things from the bottom up.

I work at the plant at Port Talbot. I'm in admin, don't want to give my department/title as it would make it obvious who I am.

My ex-husband, BIL and DS all also work here. My ex-FIL and several other family members are all current or retired employees.

Tata is a business that HAS supported us well over the years despite us not doing that well. When all is said and done, they have been good to work for.

I've noticed some snitty comments on this thread about the pension scheme so I'll deal with this first: The men (and they almost all are as women for the main would not be able to physically do the jobs the men in my family do/have done), work a four-on/four-off shift pattern. This means they work 12 hour shifts in really difficult conditions. The shift pattern is 2x12 hour days, followed straight away by 2x12 hours of nights. Factor in an hour travelling for many of the men and I think that they DESERVE every penny of their pension, even though it is usually taken any time from 60.

If any of you think that you will have trouble working until you're 67, try working in these conditions. Hard physical labour wearing heavy felt protection suits, in 1500 degree heat has worn my the older men in my family out. When they retire, they usually retire in ill-health.

If you drive a Mini, Range Rover, Jag or Nissan (not all models), you are driving around in high-grade, Port Talbot produced steel. This WILL outlast any cheap steel sourced from anywhere else in the planet. It's also safer.

There are also other different and difficult to produce grades of steel being made there.

The government could at least level the playing field by placing import tariffs and/or reducing tax on our emissions - which are many times lower than what the Chinese are pumping out. There were plans to change the blast furnaces to non-coke burning so they will use scrap steel instead of raw resources - all of which can be sourced in this country.

Going back to my appreciation of my employers, Tata. Yes, they have been brilliant so far. However, the people in charge of the plant are a self-serving bunch of idiots. They have "created" jobs for friends in management so that there are almost as many managers wandering around the plant as there are men on the front line actually producing steel. They work standard 9-5 hours, yet receive the 30% shift allowance added to their pay. If you speak to any of the "workers" they would all say the same - money for old rope. They have no idea what these managers do on a day-to-day basis, other than disappear into their department office, occasionally walking around with a clipboard. The best that can be said of them is that when they try to "manage" they cock up the whole department.

The latest round of job cuts in the last few weeks have, once again, hit ONLY the steel workers. NO managers have been culled (unless they wanted to go). The same happened last year when 150 were supposed to have gone.

Men in their early 60s wanting to go have been kept on, yet youngsters with families (and the energy to do the job) have been "de-selected" (made redundant).

There are no longer enough men left to produce the steel when all casters are working. The men that are left haven't been trained up for different casters so cannot cover for sickness. They're also being forced to work longer and longer without breaks.

Last, but not least, although I have applauded Tata for sticking with us this long, why, oh WHY have they not followed the successful management system of the sister plant in Holland? There are only forty managers there and the plant runs like clockwork (been there, seen it for myself).

IF whoever takes over the plant invests in new technology and follows the Holland example, and IF the government helped out with lowering the emissions tax and even threw a few contracts their way, the Port Talbot plant WOULD be a money-making proposition.

The men there work hard and WANT their jobs. Many travel from the Valleys where other plants were closed down, meaning they're away from home at least 17 hours a day. Their working life if literally work, home to eat and bed, then work again. Their four days break (well, three and a half after they've slept after the last night shift - if they can. Any night shifter knows how hard it is to get peace enough from their neighbours to sleep in the day!), is well earned. Yet they still want their jobs.

Please support them.

What a post.. than you xx

Powerful post itsall. I think (hope) there is a lot of support.

Even the BBC seem to be reporting on hands tied and snail pace due to EU.

I agree re pension age too, physical jobs have to be looked at differently.

The one argument in favour of nationalisation that no one has mentioned is the work ethic.
You cannot afford to have a work ethic when there are no jobs to be had. Working class people used to look down on the minority of work shy people. That stopped with the Miners strike - it had to.

It is better for a community and for society as a whole to have people in subsidized work than on the dole.