To not understand how people can justify it

[ijustdontunderstand]

Okay, not a bun fight I just want to understand how those who vote Tory can think the cuts to disability benefits are OK.

This is NOT saying if you vote Tory you're a bad person, at all, I just want to understand. Will you vote them in again knowing?

Actually, YoungGirlGrowingOld I've been informed by both direct experiences and links to more info on this thread. Look back

I haven't got the time to look them up younggirl as I care for a severely disabled young adult 24/7
I thought you might just be able to tell me the figures rather than expecting me to feel sorry for the top 3,000 earners in this country when I am deeply concerned about my very vulnerable daughters future :(

YoungGirl, you are being disingenuous in the extreme. Those of us arguing against the cuts on this thread have posted more facts, statistics and links to articles and actual evidence than those in support of the cuts, whose argument appears to consist mainly of "I knew someone once who was fiddling benefits" or the even less informed "I think this therefore it must be this" but because they don't fit with your worldview, you're ignoring them and cherrypicking only the emotional aspects put forward.

Here are some more figures for you: over 2,300 people died between 2011 - 2014 after being found fit for work by a DWP assessment (that figure comes from a FOI request made of the DWP, which they resisted responding to for as long as they could, so that doesn't fit into the "of course they'd make those figures look like X because it suits them" category, btw). At least 80 of those deaths were suicides. Mencap described the figure of 2,300 as "unusually high for people of working age who had so recently been declared fit".

I admit that the discussion got rather blown off course owl - probably my fault. I was pointing out, in response to another post, that the very highest paid already punch above their weight in tax contributions. I certainly was not suggesting they were deserving of sympathy, just that we would all miss them if they were not there!

Its people who voted tory then cry about them bullying the poor who are the issue (and braindead)

Page I think that debate about the rights and wrongs is impossible when such emotive language is used. Do I approve of DWP assessments that seem to hound people to suicide? Of course not, it's a tragedy. But more generically, do I believe that a government has a responsibility to spend increasingly scarce money for welfare responsibly? Yes, I absolutely do. I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. Also I don't think the solution to the many shortcomings of the current system highlighted on this thread is to offer up a blank cheque using borrowed money. The question of "what should we cut instead?" would prompt a million different answers, depending on the world view and experience of the person who was asked. As I said, I think we all need to get used to there being a lot less "help" available because the gruel is getting thinner and thinner!

BasketofChocolate
Yes, the trouble is that politicians are not experts. As was posted previously a significant argument of experts disagree with these "austerity' measures.

Some people in politics are fab and some are useless and some are vile. Like any office I guess! Unfortunately ministers don't go on a training course before running their department. So it's down to us to hold them to account!

Exactly worcs - it's pretty alarming to think that ministers may be appointed without any relevant experience in their own departments (Jeremy Hunt springs to mind!) Some have never even worked outside politics which I suppose explains why they appear so out of touch...

Well put, Young

I've always voted Conservative because I don't trust Labour.Never have. My family were disgusted with me, when they found out, after I voted for the first time back in the early 80's
But at the moment I am becoming more and more horrified over what is being reported, and I am also living in fear of my TA job being axed any day soon.
I feel really let down , to the point of regretting my vote, but there is no party I want to give it to instead.
There are people who abuse the social security system, and it is right to cut down on those, but, oh my goodness, there are better ways to deal with this than just cutting people off entirely! It all seems so cruel and 'a sledgehammer to crack a nut.'…

As I said, I think we all need to get used to there being a lot less "help" available because the gruel is getting thinner and thinner!

Only if you fall for the Tory lie that the 5th richest country in the world only has a policy of austerity open to it, contrary to the opinion of some of the country's - indeed, the world's - most experienced and eminent economists.

And that, I think, is the fundamental difference between us. You feel the cuts are a financial necessity. I consider, based on the opinion of far more economically-qualified brains than Osborne and Cameron, that they are purely an ideological position.

If the cuts are only being made because the gruel is getting thinner and thinner, isn't that a bit of a comment on osborne's management of the economy?

Personally I think these cuts are ideological and would be made whatever the state of the economy. Osborne certainly seems to have found some money to fund a bridge in London with plant pots.

I am truly sickened at the way the current Tory government are treating the disabled. I will never vote Conservative again.

But Labour did behave pretty shockingly when last in power. They were giving out money like it was sweeties. Even though I benefitted from some of the handouts, many of them just felt so profligate and wrong. £250 maternity grant for fruit and veg? All my NCT group used the money to upgrade to Bugaboos.

£250 (x2) given to every baby born, to encourage 'saving'? Madness. It really was as if they had so much money there were just trying to get rid of it.

I'll always remember how, in the dying days of the Labour govt, and when there were serious rumblings re imminent recession...there was an announcement that the govt was making funding available for OAPs to be able to swim for free.

They were obsessed with handouts until the very last

Err the Tories just announced a policy of giving out free money

I feel the majority (not all!) of Tory voters are of the "I'm alright Jack" mindset.

I've never voted for them. Even when I was financially secure I didn't vote for them because I always thought them to be a really cold-hearted party.

I'm not fishing for sympathy here, just giving an example of how things can change in the blink of an eye - my husband went out to work one morning and never came back and so now I'm wearing the other shoe - I'm experiencing the Tories cold-heartedness for myself.

Unfortunately, people begrudge paying a bit more tax so they vote for a party that will take money from others rather than themselves, without really caring a jot.

Pensioners with thousands of pounds just sitting in a bank account will moan about low interest rates because their savings aren't increasing as quickly as they'd like them to. They'd happily see young families have their homes repossessed because of high interest rates on borrowing, if it meant growing their own wealth.

I just think people generally lose empathy when things are going ok for them - which is why the Tories get voted in and will probably keep being voted in

Our poor, poor (5th richest) country, we must all make cuts where we can.

The disabled, sick and their carers will try and juggle lives on £30 less a week - shall we buy food this week or heat the house, if we're lucky enough to still have a house?

The high earners - can you manage on just 2 foreign holidays this year, and the second home in the country may have to be (heaven forbid) rented out - but no benefit scroungers purlease, they eat their own shit dontcha know.

That's the difference in reality. All in it together? You're having a fucking laugh

Greenish me you've hit the nail on the head with that one. I've yet to meet a poor pensioner, all the ones I know are either well off or comfortable. If you look at the welfare budget such a large proportion goes on the elderly. It's always poor pensioners this and that you don't here stories of the working low income families so much (only on the awful benefit scrounger type stories).

Hear even

Greenish im very sorry for your loss.

Vote the reason that a large proportion goes on the elderly is because they will not have the opportunity to earn more at their age. They were also led to believe that their NI contributions would allow them to receive a state pension (in the days before everyone realized that NI was a giant Ponzi scheme).

Another funny thing I have noticed about MN is how so many posters complain about the government's divide and rule tactics between (say) benefit claimants and low paid workers, but they then stuck the boot in to to "the elderly" as though it were a homogenous group gobbling up resources and going on 5 Saga holidays a year. I see some frighteningly poor elderly in my voluntary work and they are remarkably stoic ime.

I would FAR rather we got on top of the farce that is tax credits or tackled the inequity in public sector pensions before we start taking cash from the elderly, but that just proves my earlier point - ask 100 different people how they would prioritize a finite welfare budget and you will get 100 different answers.

I don't get how it's not ok to have an opinion on benefits claimants but ok to complain about rich pensioners who can't possibly need help.

I really do think that everyone has forgotten how awful labour was. They didn't want to win in 2010. They knew Gordon Brown would never win an election. That's why Tony Blair stepped down mid term. To give him a go. They knew what was coming and didn't want to win in 2010.

They knew the shit they were leaving and they didn't care. Didn't one of them leave note 'there's no money left, good luck'. That was put down to being a joke. A joke? 'Ha ha the countries fucked, we will slag you off while you make an attempt to fix it. Fuck everyone it's going to affect. lolz'

Yeah it's fucking hilarious.

They hoped the Tories would piss people off so much that the GE in 2015 would be easy for them to win. They ran a shit campaign, had a shit leader and fucked up. It back fired.

The campaign last year was fucking dire. Both Eds looked like weak idiots that had no idea what was going on. They had no idea what was going with people. Everyone says the Tories only care and bother about the rich. Labour are not any better.

They had no idea how the general public felt. Ed millibands response over the EU referendum showed that. It was essentially 'I don't want one, so tough' totally ignoring how people felt.

Because there wouldn't have been anything left for any kind of benefits if we had a labour government for another term.

I agree curran - everyone seems to have rose tinted glasses on when it come to the previous labour government, but there was no magic money tree then either. At that time, I received dreadful healthcare from the NHS in a dirty mixed ward while Brown crowed about how much money he had pissed all over the NHS. Patients got dried stale rolls with margarine for breakfast and 12 people shared a shower/toilet while the Trust's directors swanned up and down the newly-constructed entrance (that cost a million quid) in their Mercs. Just like every socialist organization ever, in other words.

Here are some things that the Tories have decided to splurge money on:

• £4 billion on a gigantic restructuring of the NHS that no one wanted
• £9 billion a year of housing benefit to rip-off private landlords, because all the council houses have been sold off)
• £25 billion a year housing benefit in total. Now remind me again, if the taxpayer foots the bill for expensive housing, why are the Tories pushing up the prices even more by subsidising mortgages by £3.7 billion?
• £360 million on cutting income tax for people earning over £100,000 a year
• today we hear another £1.6 billion converting all schools to academies, which literally no one is asking for

I just don't get why people think the Tories are good with money. It's like, because they speak nicely and wear good suits they must know what they're doing. I have to pore over the government budgets as part of my job and believe me, the incompetence is enough to make you weep!

I agree curran - everyone seems to have rose tinted glasses on when it come to the previous labour government, but there was no magic money tree then either

I agree. Which is what labour wanted. Let Tories have it in 2010, by the next GE all anyone will remember is the good years of labour and we will walk the GE. That why their campaign was so shit. They thought it was in the bag and made a mistake of believing the Polls.