to wonder if free range eggs are a big cruel con?

[evilcherub]

I normally buy free range eggs even though they are much more expensive than normal eggs but now I am wondering if they are a bit of a con, considering what can be classified as "free range". I have always wondered how free the birds really are and how easy it is to get a free range classification and it seems I have got an answer - (yes it is a Daily Mail article, but please don't let your prejudice get in the way of the point it is making);

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3489317/And-call-free-range-s-disturbing-images-16-000-free-range-hens-crammed-shed-fact-conditions-approved-RSPCA.html

We use Challens Chicks (near Maidenhead) and they are brilliant. The eggs are about the same price as organic from the supermarket (sold in boxes of 6, we get 24 every four weeks) but they taste amazing, and are grown in a local farm and then delivered within a few days of laying. You can manage their orders online and skip deliveries whenever you need to. I'm a very happy customer!

Their website is

Www.Challenschicks.com

Clarence Court still kill all the male chicks at birth though, there's no reason to think that Challens Chicks don't as well. Its still funding that industry and it's still exploitation for the sake of something perhaps tasty but entirely unnecessary.

Paperdoll - I don't especially care about the male chicks being killed if it's done humanely. I eat meat.

I do agree with you though that if you're a vegetarian because of concerns for animal welfare, you should really become a vegan. The dairy/egg industry is no kinder than the meat industry.

Absolutely agree, ethical vegetarianism is missing a whole chunk of the information really. I am already vegan, easiest way to avoid as much animal cruelty as possible. But I do think a lot of the problem is the industry goes of their way to hide the truth, it's just common knowledge.

What is a humane death though? A humane death for our pets when they're sick is a lethal injection, they quietly go to sleep, probably whilst getting stroked by someone who loves them. A 'humane' death for the male chicks is being thrown into a shredder, or being gassed. Or sometimes tied into plastic bags to suffocate. A 'humane' death for a cow or pig involves being shot in the head with a bolt gun and having their throats slit. If someone rounded up kittens and puppies and gassed them, shredded them in a machine, shot them in the head with a bolt gun or slit their throats.... No one would think that was humane would they?

Just not common knowledge*

I will now make a point of buying my eggs from.a local smallholding where you can Actually see then hens. Thank you OP

Male chicks are slung into a grinder whilst still alive.

All hens dig and scratch. Not to the same extent though. Ex bat types or commercial hybrids scratch the most. Rare breeds, especially fluffy ones or ones with feathery feet, scratch the least. They also lay fewer eggs.

Ducks don't scratch and don't need a pond. Just something to get get to get their head under. They are very messy though! The males don't crow either, so much quieter to keep.

smaller chicken keepers are more likely to keep breeds that are good for meat as well as eggs, so the males will be sold/slaughtered for meat when big enough.

No in the UK they're not, WaitrosePigeon.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/hatched-discarded-gassed-what-happens-to-male-chicks-in-the-uk-10088509.html

Do small local chicken keepers (not sure what the correct term is!) also kill male chicks?

I had never thought about this issue properly before.

Lynda from that article it suggests the male chicks cannot be used for meat as they do not grow fast enough. Suggests to me that they can be used for meat but it would be more expensive to rear them. Another reason why everyone should be paying more for their meat and animal products. I truly believe the price of these things is far too low to provide a reasonable quality of life for any of these animals. I most definitely include milk in that too.

This may have been mentioned as I did not RTFT but skimmed... If left, don't the hens eat the unfertilised eggs for nutrients? So they wouldn't go to waste.
The egg (and meat, dairy, fish, honey, leather, wool, etc.) industry is vile and cruel.

Small local chicken keepers probably buy their hens in.

I already said I don't have a problem with killing male chicks DangerQuake. I just want it done humanely.

They kill male calves too in the dairy industry. I assume people know that.

Yes here gassing them rather than grinding them up is the preferred option (although by law all hatcheries in the UK must have a macerator for 'back up' suggesting they may still be used on occasion)

Yes boy calves are also killed. In the US and Europe they're often raised for veal but they're not allowed to do that here, nor are calves under 2 weeks old allowed to be transported to be raising for veal elsewhere, so mostly they are shot at birth or just after.

The dairy industry is a tragedy for all concerned. Thanks to my son's recent diagnosis I've discovered many dairy free options (soy yogurts and ice cream for example) are in fact delicious and intend to buy them in the future for the whole family.

I would be really interested to hear your recommendations, dangerquake. And from anyone else! Is there any good vegan cheese, for instance?

Maybe this is for another thread??

Logos, happy to help. Anything to take a bit of pressure off the poor cows

I have a thread here where I was asking for recommendations so you might like to look when you have a mo: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/allergies/2687377-Making-dairy-free-exciting-for-a-preschooler - sorry if it's not clicky I'm on my phone.

Off the top of my head the Alpro yogurts and dessert pots, well you wouldn't know they were any different. The Swedish Glace vanilla ice cream is fantastic and I have yet to try the yummy looking coconut milk ones. I'll also be buying Vitalite spread for us all from now on. I love almond milk on my cereal, and coconut milk to drink on its own.

Sorry for the derail, but I believe that if you're concerned about hens you'll be concerned about cows too, so might find it of interest anyway.

Haven't found a good cheese alternative yet but maybe someone else here has a suggestion?

I live in a city. There are about 10 small holders near me from whom I buy eggs. It's becoming increasingly common - you don't need to live in the arse end of nowhere.

I agree with CuttedUpPear.

"But many years ago a friend of mine worked packing eggs into supermarket boxes, apparently she packed the same eggs into free range boxes and non free range boxes

It was a long time ago and i know things have changed but i just can't shake the feeling that the box cant be trusted"

The thing is that it doesn't really matter which eggs you end up with. The point is you are "voting" with your money. So if you vote for free range, and everyone else starts to vote for free range, it won't make financial sense for anyone to continue to operate battery farms. (I know regulations have changed now but I'm using the example from a few years ago that Rufus refers to)

"Clarence Court still kill all the male chicks at birth though, there's no reason to think that Challens Chicks don't as well. Its still funding that industry and it's still exploitation for the sake of something perhaps tasty but entirely unnecessary."

Paperdoll the problem with that position is that you will never convert everyone to veganism. There are people who want to make some kind of difference by paying more for animal products in the hope that the animals will have better welfare. If you simply tell them "that's not enough" then it all gets a bit "well, what's the point then?"

DangerQuakeRhinoSnake totally agree that we should be all be paying more for, and eating less of, all animal products. That is the model that I believe we should be shooting for. If we all ate meat a few times a day (instead of every day, for both lunch and dinner, which many people do) then demand would go down. If we were also prepared to pay more for that meat, then I think we could reasonably expect that the animal product industries would have more opportunity to scale back, give the animals more time, more space, just generally better conditions.

That is what I think a realistic scenario would be.

DangerQuakeRhinoSnake I find the Swedish Glace vanilla to be great - raspberry was vile. Meanwhile, Booja Booja chocolate is pretty good but the vanilla is horrid! A frozen mashed banana also delicious. Also like coconut and rice milk (sold as a blend- forget the brand) great with porridge

"Yes here gassing them rather than grinding them up is the preferred option (although by law all hatcheries in the UK must have a macerator for 'back up' suggesting they may still be used on occasion)"

Paperdoll, is the macerator really kept as a 'back up' or is it a grinding machine? I assumed it was primarily a grinder, which is used for all the male chicks once they are gassed. But that some barbaric factory owners simply forgo the gassing process and use the macerator for two functions.

It would be required no matter what the method of murder is, does that make sense?

Hybrid egg layer type cockerels will never make meat birds, the breeds are designed to put all their energy into laying eggs, the males do not fatten up at all.
And vice versa, meat type birds will never be able to be used as egg layers, as by the time they get to point of lay (18-20 weeks) they will be too fat to stand and will be very ill birds (unless genuinely free ranged in which case they may be fit enough to walk slowly).

We rear our own. Any cockerels from utility breeds (meat and egg) we rear on for our own use, those from egg laying breeds we dispatch humanely.
Some people think it's more humane to sell on cockerels, but they tend to be sold as cock fighting bait. Best to keep them on site and know that they've been treated very well until they are humanely dispatched.