To stop fighting for DSC?

[Fourormore]

Posting here for traffic and straight talking opinions.

DH & I together for 3.5 years. Two DC from previous marriages each plus two DC together. Going through court for his DC for 2.5 years. Lots of delays, lots of errors. Essentially DH has been asking for EOW and half holidays and now has this. Pays maintenance. I was not OW. Proceedings continue with mum wanting a variation. DH has had 3 final orders. Each time, mum finds fault and returns the matter to court. We have asked about an order to stop this and been told she hasn't applied enough yet.

DH has been accused of everything from being an alcoholic, domestic violence, neglecting DSC, physically abusing DSC, everything. I have been accused of being mentally unstable (her online stalking lead her to discover I had PND before I met DH). My DC have been accused of being violent. Obviously I don't know what happened in their relationship but DH has never had any kind of alcohol problem with me. He says he drank too much when he was at uni but don't a lot of students? DH has never been any kind of abusive to me. To the contrary, I constantly have to remind him that he is entitled to an opinion and that he doesn't have to give in to me all the time. I personally think his exW was emotionally abusive to him but as I said, I don't know this. DH is a good dad - he works full time, does housework, gets up in the night with the children if needed, plays with them, never shouts. Perhaps a little bit softer with some boundaries than I'd like but generally very good. None of the allegations have been found to be true by the court.

The DSC are massively affected by the fact that their mum cannot support contact. One is very good at acting okay but is overly eager to please, if you ask a question, you can see the cogs turning as to what answer they should give, rather than saying how they feel. Lies a lot about things that don't matter. Will pretend to be upset at handovers but has a big grin. Has some odd body language, like they are wearing a straight jacket. The other is more overtly distressed - screaming, wailing, begging for mum. Regularly makes comments that must have come from mum (adult language, subjects they haven't been told about etc). Settles down immediately after mum has left.

The court recently made a significant change - they had mum's surname on birth, they now have both. Except mum won't accept it. Where DH has put new labels on things, mum has removed or crossed out or cut them out. DSC were happy when told about this change by DH. Now several months on, they can't even say their own names with us or with mum but they can at school.

In the latter part of court proceedings, the judge and CAFCASS have talked about transferring residence or care proceedings if things don't improve. They are actually getting worse. Family counselling has taken place and resulted in mum becoming more fixed. She wants contact to reduce to the DSC seeing DH after the activity they do on a Saturday until before they do an activity on a Sunday, so not quite 24 hours, and no extra holiday contact (most so far is 10 days, we think it's been great, she thinks it's a disaster).

Every professional that has been involved has come to the conclusion that mum is not doing the right thing by the DSC and that they need her support and encouragement in having an easy relationship with DH which she can't seem to do. She was told to help the DSC buy DH a Christmas present as a gesture of goodwill. They bought a bag of star mix. She isn't remotely poor, so that wasn't why. She sends cards but signs them to DHs name and from her and the DSC, or leaves the name blank and DSC write "from x and y", no "love from", no kisses, and then one comments they didn't know that card was for DH. If DH writes in their homework books, she throws them away. One teacher has refused to issue new ones. DH can't send them back with any sign of our existence - clothes/toys we've bought, stickers or leaflets from days out, anything. They get hysterical and say mum will be angry and throw it in the bin.

DH & I are exhausted. We have used up all our money on various legal fees and associated costs, we are emotionally drained and this is impacting on all the children. I don't think I can carry on for much longer in our marriage, watching the fight for the DSC continue endlessly, negatively impacting them, us and our other DC. If we separate, I don't think it would change things for DH, he would still have to fight this much and then our DC together would have a "broken home". I don't want that.

We're at a cross roads now. DH either pushes on for transfer of residence (and all the trauma that will bring) though would not have have a lawyer as we have no money left or he gives in and DH effectively becomes little more than a friendly uncle they visit for a Saturday afternoon and night once a week. That doesn't feel like the right option either - it reduces conflict, which is good, but only until mum decides she's not happy with that either (she hasn't been happy at any stage, even when contact was 2 hours a week), and it puts the children at risk of feeling rejected (a common theme until recently was "Mummy says you left us, mummy says you don't love us, mummy says you love Four's children more than us" etc).

I literally don't know what to do for the best. I suspect there isn't a right answer or that the right answer can only be known with the benefit of hindsight. What I do know is that this isn't working

How does he react when she accepts a party invitation?

And please don't think I'm saying he's at fault as it sounds like he's doing well.its just worth exploring.

Sometimes he'd say something like
"I will take child to the party, however in future please can you check with me before you accept the invitation. I do want the children to be able to go to these sorts of things. As you know, it is up to me to decide what the children do during their time with me, and I don't want the children to be disappointed if you accept an invitation in future when we have other plans that we cannot change."

Sometimes he just takes them without saying anything at all. Sometimes he'd just write "Please can you check with me before accepting invitations in future".

How about he just tries

Saying nothing about future but including it in some form of parallel parenting commitment. (In order to be very clear about what was what this is what the two parents had and it was very useful).an agreement is not essential but can be helpful,and even without an agreement that perticular point is obvious so only a fool needs it stating.

If he has made alternative arangements that he feels are more important than a party or what ever she has purchased tickets for then he just says "that's a shame we are doing X instead" even very little children can understand about things like dad aranging a family visit or outing of his own,and given that you say he is very happy to facilitate the attendance as he does want the kids to go to things like this,nobody is backing down losing face or taking advantage of anything.

It's almost like puppy training in a way.

But by not verbally making that statement (given that she already knows it she just does not care) he is not giving her the opourtunity to be hostile. Perhaps alternative arangements when she has done this will contribute towards her caring (not saying make them to spite her just if you do have some stick to them) the children will not be losing out because I'm sure your plans are just as good if not better than a party.

If she uses none attendance at a party or her aranged event as a reason to play silly buggers with contact it just makes your case stronger.

Not pointing out the obvious can often disarm a naturally defensive unreasonable person especially one who believes this sort of thing is a power struggle and they hold it all.

She just wouldn't agree to a parallel parenting agreement, that's the problem. We could suggest it at the next hearing, perhaps, as I do think it would be really helpful. There has been a huge focus on finding a way to co-parent but I don't think it's possible.
I agree he is pretty much wasting his breath.

There was one time that we had plans and did exactly that and he still hasn't heard the end of it, either from her or by the children saying "we wanted to go to that party and mummy says you wouldn't let us."

And thank you, for your feedback. I really appreciate it.

I'd go for residence based on everything you've said. She's not putting the children first.

It will be traumatic, but it is traumatic already, and will be traumatic EOW, holiday and court case. At least if they moved residence the children would be secure for the majority of the time.

Given that the children are making those types of coments just remind them each and every time what it was they did instead.

Say it cheerfully just counteract her pettiness with positivity for them and the things you do together.

It is possible for one parent to have their own plan that the other has no knowledge about so for PP to work it does not need cooperation from the other party.

Sorry about keeping on mentioning the parents I know who it worked for but one of them kinda forced it.

He was in my company and she rang him initially I could only hear his side of the conversation but when it became heated I heard both. After the call he directly asked me what it was he could have done differently because he felt he had been backed into a corner and been totally reasonable. He wasn't he was quite goady (but he did not realise it) I suggested he just didn't converse with her other than plesant cheery greeting on handover. I know several people had suggested PP to him but he had always said it wouldn't work she wouldn't comply loads of stuff like that, him not engaging with her sort of forced it,if that makes sense.

Granted there's was a serious issue children's services were involved lots of withholding on both sides was occuring,false allagations the works but now they do not have any input with each other all CP stuff has been dropped because the PP worked.

Fwiw he has the child mainly living with him.

Thank you, Needs. I am so grateful. I'll encourage DH to have a read of parallel parenting agreements and tell him to revert to the friendly style of communicating, even if it doesn't get us anywhere

Hang on in there OP, as tough as it is. A family member is going through this and it is hell. His ex makes allegations after every contact (physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse etc. She even accused my family member of getting their ds to sexually abuse her partner ) There has been so much interruption to contact as every allegation has to be investigated. It has been noted many times in SW reports that the mum is putting words in his mouth and creating false accounts. They have been so patient and forgiving with her because she has mild SEN.

My DB has been repeatedly told that because he has never missed a court or contact that that has really gone in his favour. At the last meeting the ex was told that another allegation will result in DB getting full custody.

I experienced this throughout most of my childhood. The result was that my dad backed off. I am late thirties and don't have a good relationship with him now at all. We haven't been close since he left (I was v young). My mum would ignore us when we got back from visiting him. She had a lot of rejection in her childhood and when my dad left, she couldn't deal with it. Am just mentioning this to highlight the Children's viewpoint.

Their dad must never give up on them. This would only make things worse. They must feel a mess inside poor things.

well I do not think either of you knew what you were getting into, who could have predicted it would be that difficult toget contact...

(goes back to rtft)

OP Have you been in contact with The Centre for Separated Parenting? Karen Woodall offers families various support depending on what they need, and can act as an expert witness in Family Court Cases where transfer of residence is the only way to resolve the abuse of the DC's. She offers one-off consultacy sessions for parents/stepparents and other family members to help consider the options. Her understanding of child psychology when it comes to family separation and alienation is internationally recognised.

At the same time, I share my own experience, which is very similar to your own. There comes a time when you may have to accept that the professionals are unable to protect the DC's completely and so therefore can only make the "least worst" decision for the DC's.
In my DH's case, the only way for his DC's to have the opportunity to maintain a relationship with both their parents was for them to remain living with their mum. If their residency had been transfered, she would have rejected them and they would have lost a parent. As it is, DH has a superficial relationship with his DS at the moment - at a level his exW is willing to tolerate - but it is better than nothing at all. His DD is an adult, and has chosen not to incur her mums wrath by having contact with DH or I.

It's very sad

OP I'm sorry to say this but sometimes you are dealing with somebody so unreasonable that nothing you do will change them . You will never find the magic bullet for a strategy to adopt that will make her behave reasonably. Probably she has other things going on in her life, and in her past life like a pp mentioned, that has caused her to react like this. Nothing you can do will change that. The more you try to be there for the dc, the worse she will get.

I don't know what to suggest, whether you should keep fighting or not. But just wanted to say that whatever you decide to do, you should accept that she will never change, she will never become reasonable, and nothing you do will prompt her to respond in a better way than she has been doing so far - it is just not within your power to influence her in the right direction. It is frustrating because you feel like if only you did X or Y she would respond better, but she won't. Sad for the dc.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Thank you, PrettyBright. I am a keen follower of KW. I've seen a few of your posts around and thought you seemed familiar - I think we are both regular name changers and have spoken several times in the past. We can't afford her as an expert witness and have been advised we wouldn't even get an expert witness because the case isn't complicated enough(?!) I have been thinking about seeing if they can offer me and DH some support, it's just not cheap.

Kawliga - oh, I know. I do. I think it's just hard to let go of that last little bit of hope, to want there to be something DH could say or do that would make her realise the damage that is being caused. Probably that's why it's so painful at the moment because that hope really is fading.

I can't imagine how difficult this must be for you. I don't think you should give up and I think you should go for residency. I definitely think you should try and 'friendly conversation' but she sounds like she has some degree of personality problems which causes her to be totally fixated. It is never going to be an easy fix.

Fourormore, it can be called Parental Alienation even when contact is ongoing. The parent without residency is not always denied contact, it's more a case of the constant criticism of them and emotionally damaging remarks to the DC about them.

Have you seen the videos on Youtube by a guy called Ryan Thomas? He was a child caught in the middle and his mother did her best to alienate his father. He made the videos to help others, telling his story so that people would understand what it felt like from the child's point of view. Very interesting and offers a different perspective, because it is the DC who suffer the most.

I could have written your post, we are in exactly the same situation and are currently waiting for yet another court date for breach of contact order by dh's ex, it's now been 5 months since putting in papers to the court and no contact. It's so hard, there doesn't seem to be any provision for mothers who consistently interfere with contact. I really feel for you, it's so hard.

Huge sympathy op, we had this (to a lesser extent) with dh's ex. It resulted in dsd1 going nc 4 years ago at age 14. Things are all much better these days and dsd2 is 16 and we have a great relationship with her (unfortunately we still don't see dsd1). Dh's ex has all but admitted she got things wrong with dsd1.

Anyway, I completely agree with girly about parental alienation. Unfortunately I believe that if you and your dh back off there's a very good chance that your dsc will become completely alienated and one day also go nc.

I haven't, girly, I'll have a look for those, thank you.

And thank you to everyone else who has commented adding their support and their own experiences. I think the isolation and not knowing people who really understand what it's like is makes things seem much worse.