To not understand why Nicky Morgan is looking towards the US for a replacement OFSTED Chief

[ReallyTired]

The USA is hardly the centre of educational excellent or high achievement. The fact that people like Donald Trump are popular in the US, or the right to bare arms shows that American educators hardly excel at the development of critical thinking skills in american citizens.

Why doesn't the UK recruit someone from Finland or Singapore? Or maybe a truely outstanding headteacher who works in the UK. At least the likes of Sir Michael Wilshaw has some idea of what its like to teach in an English classroom.

However, I should point out that there is no "U.S. education system" any more than there is a "British education system". Each of the 50 states runs its own education, and the quality varies accordingly, from abysmal to extremely good.

This is a very good point. There can also be great differences within states. I live in a state that overall is ranked somewhere in the middle, but the school district I live in is one of the top in the country. Depending on the state, individual school districts in the US often have a good bit of autonomy.

And yet Finland's outcomes are first class according to PISA.

Whereas in England we test, test, test, differentiate every lesson to meet every student's needs, have lots of group work, assessment, marking policies, observations of teachers, tests, tests, tests, rarely use textbooks, tell techers to talk as little as possible and to 'hand over the learning' to children, interfere in what teachers are trained to do, test, test, test, make tests and exams harder, get rid of coursework and continuous assessment, test, test, test and get crap PISA results and have a huge teacher shortage.

We clearly have our system nailed.

Do you think that "differentiation" can cause more harm than good. Ie. can lower expecations put a ceiling on a child's acheivement. For example secondary schools where only the top 30 children in each year group get to do triple science even if there are 33 children who want to/ are capable of triple science.

No let's not follow what works instead lets try another crazy plan and appoint someone from a country with an equally mediocre education system

shebird - but the system that appears to work in Finland is the total opposite of what is being delivered in England and Wales now. It sounds much more like the 1970's-style education as was here.

Couple that with the fact that the nature of parental involvement in schools in Finland is very different - no opportunity for informal chats between parent and teacher, much more independence at a young age and a system that doesn't provide parents with the opportunity to challenge the schooling their DC is receiving.

And, of course, the schools in Finland are much smaller than here.

but the system that appears to work in Finland is the total opposite of what is being delivered in England and Wales now. It sounds much more like the 1970's-style education as was here.

Yes, less testing, targeting, tracking and no hours and hours of teachers time spent on elaborate planning, evidencing and recording stuff and jumping through hoops to please Ofsted. Much more time actually spent teaching children.

Couple that with the fact that the nature of parental involvement in schools in Finland is very different - no opportunity for informal chats between parent and teacher, much more independence at a young age and a system that doesn't provide parents with the opportunity to challenge the schooling their DC is receiving.

I don't feel that there are many opportunities for chats with my DCs teachers or that I would get very far with challenging many aspects of their education which is largely dictated by Ofsted. I'm not saying the system in Finland is perfect, just despairing that we don't look to those that are getting in right and adapt our system accordingly.

Except that I suspect governments might be quite happy with the Finnish system. The problem is the education establishment (by which I mean education academics, bureaucrats, Ofsted inspectors, and quite a few headteachers); most of them would be hugely resistant to that kind of teaching style. Look at the huge fuss they kicked up over phonics, because they didn't believe children should be explicitly taught to read, but instead should discover for themselves how to do it, in the same "natural" way they discover how to talk.

And there are quite a few teachers who wouldn't be happy with it either.

kesstrel

The problem is that education should be available and accessible to every child.

Boney

Sorry, I didn't understand the point of your post. Are you saying that isn't the case in Finland? Because I don't think that's true.

The right to 'bare arms', that is hilarious!

You're right: for one thing, the complete lack of differentiation (all mixed ability) would be very off-putting to a lot of parents.

That's true - parents wouldn't be able to brag about how their child is in top set. And they wouldn't be able to harangue teachers into moving their child up a set.

Also, there are many teachers who would dislike the fact that Finnish teaching methods are, on the whole, not all that "progressive" - there is little group work, lots of teacher-talk, lots of textbooks, desks face the front even in primary school.

I disagree. Teachers are not dictated to about their every move in Finland. They can choose how they run their class without constant constant interference. Who cares which way the desks face?

The real reason that it would never be introduced here is because the government certainly don't want to be increasing salaries of teachers. And they want to have more dictatorship and interference. The Finnish system trusts their teachers. We do not.

Although classes are rarely bigger than 20 in Finland, because their unions (which, seemingly, are listened to) insisted on it. So if there was an arsey parent who didn't want their super clever child taught with "the thickies" then it wouldn't matter as much because the teacher could get round to helping the weaker ones very easily in a class which was so little.

kesstrel

Apologies, only a part of what I wrote posted.

The Finnish system is a lot more than stand up and teach, they are able to provide a whole group around pupils for their educational needs, which the government leaves alone.

Its the same with the NHS as well they look to US and fails obviously.

Mark Kearney is Canadian and running the Bank of England.
For any senior level role, why not consider global talent?
There may be amazing, creative, imaginative educators in the USA who would do a great job. Or in any other country. Just because the US education system may be unpopular in the uk doesn't mean that there are not talented people working in education there or anywhere else.
I don't think the fact that some people in the USA support trump or guns means the entire nation should be judged on that and deemed u site able to work in the uk.
I personally think ofsted do a good job.

I personally think ofsted do a good job.

Really? In what way?

Do you think they are able to judge a school in the 6 hours they spend in it?

Really it's coming across like you're conflating your utter disdain for America/Americans with your thoughts on education.

They execute black people rather than teach them? Is it one or the other then?

Take it down a notch.

I personally think ofsted do a good job.

Would this be the ofsted that changes its rules every couple of years and after outsourcing its inspectors had to fire the majority of them?

Ofsted is a prime example of inefficiency and what is not fit for purpose.

It was the governments decision to outsource ofsted and then they changed their mind. Not the decision of individual inspectors.
They do not spend 6 hours in a school!

mouldycheesefan

Yes the government outsourced ofsted but that doesn't make the ppoint any different.

They do not spend 6 hours in a school!

On a standard inspection they only spend 6 hrs in a school, if they do a section 8 (I think could be a 5 I get them mixed up) they come in for 3 days, this maybe because a school is going down the standards or going up.

Finnish teachers aren't actually paid more - that's a bit of a myth. They average $37500 vs $44,000 for teachers in England. The reason people think they are paid more is because doctors and lawyers in Finland are paid less, so there is less of a discrepancy.

Arguably, Finnish teachers have autonomy in the classroom primarily because the more traditional methods most of them use were very effective. Had they not been, I suspect the Finnish government would have intervened. In fact, they did intervene very heavy-handedly during the 70s and 80s when the comprehensive reforms were brought in. It was only as these reforms bedded in that teachers were gradually given more autonomy.

The Finnish government has always done annual testing in a sample of schools to ensure high standards of achievement are maintained. They have also always had a national curriculum.

The reason the national curriculum, SATS and Ofsted were brought in in this country was because of the perceived problems in many English schools during the 70s, 80s and 90s, such as those voiced by the majority of posters on this currently-running thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/2572753-Primary-education-Better-in-our-day

As far as "who cares which way desks are facing" - I have read a number of comments by primary school teachers on social media who would like to have their desks facing the front, but who are not permitted to do so, even for older primary students.

The Finnish system trusts their teachers. We do not.

I think the key issue is that Finnish parents trust their DCs teachers. That is a very big cultural difference compared to the UK, where the right to complain, and to withdraw DCs from elements of the curriculum, is protected by law.

Interesting.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/finland/10489070/OECD-education-report-Finlands-no-inspections-no-league-tables-and-few-exams-approach.html